Forge Motorsport BCDK - Brake Cooling Duct Kit
Dec 1, 2005 | 09:32 PM
#46
Originally Posted by Taz
Neoprene is cheaper and also works (300F), instead of the silicone (orange) duct. Try to opt for one that's lined on the inside (two ply), more durable since the reinforcing steel wire won't come loose as easily. 
Again, we're looking at all of our options and we'll select the ducting that meets all of our requirements.
Dec 1, 2005 | 09:46 PM
#47
Originally Posted by JTB
The fans might work assuming they are only going to be installed for track days. I don't think they will last very long on a daily driver.
I'm not sure where the inlets will be on the Forge kit, or others for that matter, but I don't plan to cut up my front bumper, so I'll probably pull from the undertray. Hopefully this will minimize the exposure of the fans to the elements.
There is a pretty powerful 12v 3" ducted fan called the E-Ram, probably heard of it, and it really does move a lot of air, but they're pretty expensive. My mechanic friend has one and it will move enough air to lift itself, but it does not make much HP difference...we slapped it onto my sportbike and put it on the dyno and it made about a 1HP increase. It would be good for really moving some serious air to the brakes in a 3" ducted system.
Dec 2, 2005 | 01:06 AM
#48
Originally Posted by Killboy
Thanks for the update. I still intend to go a small step further and install ducted fans. They're only about $12 and voltage will have to be halved, but I believe they may move enough air after a hard run to cool the entire rotor evenly and minimize warping due to temperature differences between the caliper and open rotor area. Worth a shot! 
Even the larger fan won't help you too much at speed. Your best bet is to just let air run through the ducts w/ as little restriction as possible and you should be fine. We have pretty big rotors already so low speed cooling isn't a problem.
Dec 2, 2005 | 01:17 AM
#49
Originally Posted by marksae
We have pretty big rotors already so low speed cooling isn't a problem.
Still, I'll give the ducting a shot without the fans unless I warp another set of rotors.
Dec 2, 2005 | 01:32 AM
#50
Evolved Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,496
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From: Bangkok
On second thoughts, will there be any danger of it actually catching water?
What I mean is that if you're driving in really heavy rain, will this kit act as a sort of water collector and effectively hose your rotor?
I suppose you could take off the ducting when it's raining a lot...
What I mean is that if you're driving in really heavy rain, will this kit act as a sort of water collector and effectively hose your rotor?
I suppose you could take off the ducting when it's raining a lot...
Dec 2, 2005 | 01:56 AM
#51
Originally Posted by x838nwy
On second thoughts, will there be any danger of it actually catching water?
What I mean is that if you're driving in really heavy rain, will this kit act as a sort of water collector and effectively hose your rotor?
I suppose you could take off the ducting when it's raining a lot...
What I mean is that if you're driving in really heavy rain, will this kit act as a sort of water collector and effectively hose your rotor?
I suppose you could take off the ducting when it's raining a lot...
Dec 2, 2005 | 02:18 AM
#52
Evolved Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,496
Likes: 0
From: Bangkok
What do people mean by 'low speed' when they talk about low speed cooling? As your k.e. goes up as a square of your speed, low speed cooling shouldn't be a problem as there is a lot less needed. In other words, if you have problems cooling your brakes at 60mph, then you'll be in BIG trouble at 100mph.
At low speed, you're not getting rid of that much engergy, so your rotors shouldn't be getting that hot surely. This assumes that you're not going down a steep hill with your foot constantly on the brakes.
On the other hand, if you're going around tight and twisty stuff with lots of braking and low ave. speed (like Killboy) then what you might want is a fan that suck air FROM the rotor rather than blow air at it. So it won't restrict the air flow when you're going fast and will cool when you're running relatively slowly.
Needs good fans though, to handle all that heat.... and brake dust...
At low speed, you're not getting rid of that much engergy, so your rotors shouldn't be getting that hot surely. This assumes that you're not going down a steep hill with your foot constantly on the brakes.
On the other hand, if you're going around tight and twisty stuff with lots of braking and low ave. speed (like Killboy) then what you might want is a fan that suck air FROM the rotor rather than blow air at it. So it won't restrict the air flow when you're going fast and will cool when you're running relatively slowly.
Needs good fans though, to handle all that heat.... and brake dust...
Dec 2, 2005 | 02:40 AM
#53
Yeah most people aren't in this situation, I'm not trying to say my setup would be beneficial to hardly anyone else. But with 200+ curves in 10 miles, it's the frequency of brake use that is killing me, combined with the lower speed.
Dec 2, 2005 | 05:59 AM
#54
There are these which are made for what you want. I've recently installed a set of these on an MR.
http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?fo...action=product
http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?fo...action=product
Dec 2, 2005 | 06:15 AM
#55
I want to offer some input, but I just woke up 5 minutes ago so I'm a little groggy and this may not be my most coherent post! 
We WILL NOT be including these fans, nor will we offer them seprately, so I don't want anyone to get the impression that we are. If anyone does this in conjunction with our kit, they assume ALL responsibility for any and all work required to make them work and any and all possible negative side-effects resulting from doing so.
Now that that is said and done, here's my take on the whole situation....
....yes, some water may get into the ducting, however, the ducting we will be using will be resistant to most fluids, corrosive and non-, the ducts themselves are aluminum with 100% stainless steel hardware so corrosion of the metal pieces is not an issue either, but this kit is absolutely intended for medium to heavy track use, and I cannot necessarily recommend that it is ideal for a daily driven car solely based on braking temperatures that would require and receive the most benefit from the use of these kits. If water were to enter the ducting, it would likely be forced through the ducting by way of the ambient airflow through the ducting, or the temperatures would still be high enough to evaporate the water while still allowing the brakes to be within their optimal operating temperature.
Consider, as I mentioned previously, that the rotors create vacuum at their center when they rotate. This draws air through the vanes to the outer edges of the rotor as it spins. Having the ducts in place allows the already present vacuum to draw in much cooler air from the front of the vehicle instead of the rotors drawing air from the wheel wells or the lower engine bay, which will significantly aid in the cooling properties already present.
Now, I have not measured nor seen any data that would indicate the "force" or actual amount of airflow created by this vacuum as the rotors spin, but I would have to imagine that it is sufficient enough to keep the brakes within their optimal operating temperatures on a daily driven car without ducting installed, and obviously this force is not sifficient on vehicles that see mild to heavy track use, but the ducting should aid in the cooling properties under those conditions to bring the rotors back to within an acceptable temperature range.
Now, with the air being directed to the center of the rotor and drawn outwards, this does not necessarily limit the cooling efficiency to the rotors alone, but the brake pads should see a marked improvement as well as the calipers and fluid. However, you must consider that I have not yet had an opportunity to do any testing of the temperture changes, but I hope to be able to do so once the kits are completed.
While I realize that these kits are likely destined to be used on many vehicles that will see little to no track use, that is not their intended purpose and I have no control over what may result from using these kits on a daily driven vehicle. Water, stones, and all sorts of other debris MAY enter the ducting with street use, and I cannot guess as to what may result from that occurance as there is an impossibily high number of variables to consider, but offroad (track) conditions will typically offer a much safer and "debris-free" environment for the repeated and continuous use of these ducts without as high of a risk of anything unwanted entering the ducting. Consider that most of the time, cars are not even run on the track in wet conditions and debris is typically kept off of the track pretty effectively unless you drive right though the debris field following an accident.
When looking at these ducts and their benefits related to brake pad temperatures, street use of these ducts MAY not necessarily allow an aggressive street pad to get to within its operating temperature as quickly as it typically would without the aid of the ducting. Under track conditions, often times, the brakes get too far above their optimal operating temperatures thus requiring the use of cooling ducts. This is very rarely ever an issue on a street driven vehicle that sees little to no track use.
Killboy is experiencing a unique situation, but without some sort of test data, I cannot say what benefit his fan idea may or may not have. If he decides to incorporate the fans to our ducting kit, the responsibility of doing so is entirely his, and I know he understands that. I applaud his efforts and ideas, but I have no personal experience to effectively say whether or not this idea is worth the cost or effort.
Also, I have no way of knowing how the fan idea will work in conjunction with the already present vacuum from the rotation of the rotor. I do not know if the fans would create a restriction to the vacuum when the car is traveling at any speed or if they would help. Obviously the only ambient air moving when the vehicle is stopped is that which is propelled by the fans, but when in motion, I do not know how these things will effect each other.
Take all of the above for what you will as I have done no testing as of yet, but I WILL be doing so at the absolute earliest opportunity in an attempt to show a functional benefit from these ducts under track conditions, but understand that with this product, we have designed it to accomodate as many variables and possible problems as we can, and that it's warranty only covers defects, failure, and proper fitment of the caliper ducts and the fitting hardware, and that the actual ducting WILL wear out over time and with repeated use, and it is impossible for us to offer a warranty on it as it is not our own product. The customer must assume some risk when installing this kit as it will be required that some cutting/trimming is done to allow the proper routing of the ducting, and we cannot include any components that will make the mounting of the ducting to the front bumper specific to any front bumper. This kit needs to accomodate every possible front bumper used on an Evo 7, 8, or 9 and we intend to provide only those components that will offer that flexibility.
I will try to keep everyone up to date as we go along!
We WILL NOT be including these fans, nor will we offer them seprately, so I don't want anyone to get the impression that we are. If anyone does this in conjunction with our kit, they assume ALL responsibility for any and all work required to make them work and any and all possible negative side-effects resulting from doing so.
Now that that is said and done, here's my take on the whole situation....
....yes, some water may get into the ducting, however, the ducting we will be using will be resistant to most fluids, corrosive and non-, the ducts themselves are aluminum with 100% stainless steel hardware so corrosion of the metal pieces is not an issue either, but this kit is absolutely intended for medium to heavy track use, and I cannot necessarily recommend that it is ideal for a daily driven car solely based on braking temperatures that would require and receive the most benefit from the use of these kits. If water were to enter the ducting, it would likely be forced through the ducting by way of the ambient airflow through the ducting, or the temperatures would still be high enough to evaporate the water while still allowing the brakes to be within their optimal operating temperature.
Consider, as I mentioned previously, that the rotors create vacuum at their center when they rotate. This draws air through the vanes to the outer edges of the rotor as it spins. Having the ducts in place allows the already present vacuum to draw in much cooler air from the front of the vehicle instead of the rotors drawing air from the wheel wells or the lower engine bay, which will significantly aid in the cooling properties already present.
Now, I have not measured nor seen any data that would indicate the "force" or actual amount of airflow created by this vacuum as the rotors spin, but I would have to imagine that it is sufficient enough to keep the brakes within their optimal operating temperatures on a daily driven car without ducting installed, and obviously this force is not sifficient on vehicles that see mild to heavy track use, but the ducting should aid in the cooling properties under those conditions to bring the rotors back to within an acceptable temperature range.
Now, with the air being directed to the center of the rotor and drawn outwards, this does not necessarily limit the cooling efficiency to the rotors alone, but the brake pads should see a marked improvement as well as the calipers and fluid. However, you must consider that I have not yet had an opportunity to do any testing of the temperture changes, but I hope to be able to do so once the kits are completed.
While I realize that these kits are likely destined to be used on many vehicles that will see little to no track use, that is not their intended purpose and I have no control over what may result from using these kits on a daily driven vehicle. Water, stones, and all sorts of other debris MAY enter the ducting with street use, and I cannot guess as to what may result from that occurance as there is an impossibily high number of variables to consider, but offroad (track) conditions will typically offer a much safer and "debris-free" environment for the repeated and continuous use of these ducts without as high of a risk of anything unwanted entering the ducting. Consider that most of the time, cars are not even run on the track in wet conditions and debris is typically kept off of the track pretty effectively unless you drive right though the debris field following an accident.
When looking at these ducts and their benefits related to brake pad temperatures, street use of these ducts MAY not necessarily allow an aggressive street pad to get to within its operating temperature as quickly as it typically would without the aid of the ducting. Under track conditions, often times, the brakes get too far above their optimal operating temperatures thus requiring the use of cooling ducts. This is very rarely ever an issue on a street driven vehicle that sees little to no track use.
Killboy is experiencing a unique situation, but without some sort of test data, I cannot say what benefit his fan idea may or may not have. If he decides to incorporate the fans to our ducting kit, the responsibility of doing so is entirely his, and I know he understands that. I applaud his efforts and ideas, but I have no personal experience to effectively say whether or not this idea is worth the cost or effort.
Also, I have no way of knowing how the fan idea will work in conjunction with the already present vacuum from the rotation of the rotor. I do not know if the fans would create a restriction to the vacuum when the car is traveling at any speed or if they would help. Obviously the only ambient air moving when the vehicle is stopped is that which is propelled by the fans, but when in motion, I do not know how these things will effect each other.
Take all of the above for what you will as I have done no testing as of yet, but I WILL be doing so at the absolute earliest opportunity in an attempt to show a functional benefit from these ducts under track conditions, but understand that with this product, we have designed it to accomodate as many variables and possible problems as we can, and that it's warranty only covers defects, failure, and proper fitment of the caliper ducts and the fitting hardware, and that the actual ducting WILL wear out over time and with repeated use, and it is impossible for us to offer a warranty on it as it is not our own product. The customer must assume some risk when installing this kit as it will be required that some cutting/trimming is done to allow the proper routing of the ducting, and we cannot include any components that will make the mounting of the ducting to the front bumper specific to any front bumper. This kit needs to accomodate every possible front bumper used on an Evo 7, 8, or 9 and we intend to provide only those components that will offer that flexibility.
I will try to keep everyone up to date as we go along!
Last edited by Mike@Forge; Dec 2, 2005 at 06:18 AM.
Dec 2, 2005 | 08:29 AM
#57
Mike - consider using the 600F Silicine hose such as this (second item on page): http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/duct.htm
I have had this hose on my car for over almost 2 years and several track sessions and it is holding up very well against road salt, track heat, freezing temp flexing, hot flexing and durability. It did change color to a more brown color near the caliper but that is to be expected. No tears at stress points where clamp attaches either. For a $20 price difference use the good hose so you don't have to go and change it out each year.
I also agree with Mike's warnings: The brake ducing will impact your braking in a negative way on the street, especially in winter months. Use at your own risk. Make sure you do not lend the car to others that are not aware of the ductings impact.
The fan idea: I have doubts it will help - I think it will worsen the performance. Consider changing to a higher temp pad if you need to instead. As a first step however, I'd forget about the asumptions and do some actual testing first to see if you even need it or not. Use the paint that gives you an idea of your brake temps such as http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?fo...action=product and then choose the pads accordingly.
Other points: I did not find water to be an isse with the brake ducting. Some people take off the splash guards on the inside of the rotors. This mod does have a huge impact in respect to water. If it is raining or you just drove through a puddle, your brakes are not going to work for the first 2-3 seconds at all - It feels like having butter on the rotors.
I have had this hose on my car for over almost 2 years and several track sessions and it is holding up very well against road salt, track heat, freezing temp flexing, hot flexing and durability. It did change color to a more brown color near the caliper but that is to be expected. No tears at stress points where clamp attaches either. For a $20 price difference use the good hose so you don't have to go and change it out each year.
I also agree with Mike's warnings: The brake ducing will impact your braking in a negative way on the street, especially in winter months. Use at your own risk. Make sure you do not lend the car to others that are not aware of the ductings impact.
The fan idea: I have doubts it will help - I think it will worsen the performance. Consider changing to a higher temp pad if you need to instead. As a first step however, I'd forget about the asumptions and do some actual testing first to see if you even need it or not. Use the paint that gives you an idea of your brake temps such as http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?fo...action=product and then choose the pads accordingly.
Other points: I did not find water to be an isse with the brake ducting. Some people take off the splash guards on the inside of the rotors. This mod does have a huge impact in respect to water. If it is raining or you just drove through a puddle, your brakes are not going to work for the first 2-3 seconds at all - It feels like having butter on the rotors.
Dec 2, 2005 | 08:37 AM
#58
Originally Posted by xtnct
Mike - consider using the 600F Silicine hose such as this (second item on page): http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/duct.htm
I have had this hose on my car for over almost 2 years and several track sessions and it is holding up very well against road salt, track heat, freezing temp flexing, hot flexing and durability. It did change color to a more brown color near the caliper but that is to be expected. No tears at stress points where clamp attaches either. For a $20 price difference use the good hose so you don't have to go and change it out each year.
I also agree with Mike's warnings: The brake ducing will impact your braking in a negative way on the street, especially in winter months. Use at your own risk. Make sure you do not lend the car to others that are not aware of the ductings impact.
The fan idea: I have doubts it will help - I think it will worsen the performance. Consider changing to a higher temp pad if you need to instead. As a first step however, I'd forget about the asumptions and do some actual testing first to see if you even need it or not. Use the paint that gives you an idea of your brake temps such as http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?fo...action=product and then choose the pads accordingly.
Other points: I did not find water to be an isse with the brake ducting. Some people take off the splash guards on the inside of the rotors. This mod does have a huge impact in respect to water. If it is raining or you just drove through a puddle, your brakes are not going to work for the first 2-3 seconds at all - It feels like having butter on the rotors.
I have had this hose on my car for over almost 2 years and several track sessions and it is holding up very well against road salt, track heat, freezing temp flexing, hot flexing and durability. It did change color to a more brown color near the caliper but that is to be expected. No tears at stress points where clamp attaches either. For a $20 price difference use the good hose so you don't have to go and change it out each year.
I also agree with Mike's warnings: The brake ducing will impact your braking in a negative way on the street, especially in winter months. Use at your own risk. Make sure you do not lend the car to others that are not aware of the ductings impact.
The fan idea: I have doubts it will help - I think it will worsen the performance. Consider changing to a higher temp pad if you need to instead. As a first step however, I'd forget about the asumptions and do some actual testing first to see if you even need it or not. Use the paint that gives you an idea of your brake temps such as http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?fo...action=product and then choose the pads accordingly.
Other points: I did not find water to be an isse with the brake ducting. Some people take off the splash guards on the inside of the rotors. This mod does have a huge impact in respect to water. If it is raining or you just drove through a puddle, your brakes are not going to work for the first 2-3 seconds at all - It feels like having butter on the rotors.
yup... I use that hose too, works great. 2".
n
Dec 2, 2005 | 09:00 AM
#60
Evolved Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,496
Likes: 0
From: Bangkok
Mike,
I think my point regarding the water was taken the wrong way. I'm not after a system where you can guarantee that no water, sleet, stone, crisp packets cannot get in to. And it would be silly to expect so.
What I was (and still am) wondering is where the duct will run FROM and how easily it would be for rain to get it. And thus how necessary for it to be removed if it's rainy season. Simple as that.
I'm not going to use it on the track, but it would be useful for me nonetheless. I'm not about to blame anyone, least of all you for what I choose to do with it.
I hope this clear things up a bit.
I think my point regarding the water was taken the wrong way. I'm not after a system where you can guarantee that no water, sleet, stone, crisp packets cannot get in to. And it would be silly to expect so.
What I was (and still am) wondering is where the duct will run FROM and how easily it would be for rain to get it. And thus how necessary for it to be removed if it's rainy season. Simple as that.
I'm not going to use it on the track, but it would be useful for me nonetheless. I'm not about to blame anyone, least of all you for what I choose to do with it.
I hope this clear things up a bit.