Buschur vs Ebay Exhuast Test Results - Round 1
Feb 17, 2007, 11:37 PM
#17
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jap is as offensive as someone calling me a polack. the new lancer along with the eclipse is going to be built in my home state of illinois. honda just announced that they are spending billions to build a new plant in indiana. while chrysler just announced that they are laying off 13000 people in the next three years. my point is that why not support small business owners like myself (retail not cars) that have a vested interest in the evo community. i recently talked to martin at ams and they really do not make alot of money on certain parts. with materials and labor they are lucky to make $25 on certain parts. i know an exhaust, when you come down to it, is just a three inch pipe from your turbo out the back. but can you pm the guys from ebay with questions about the exhaust at 3:00 a.m. or call Al (dynofalsh) on his cell with questions on his tune.
Feb 17, 2007, 11:37 PM
#18
WOW!
I know it takes time to do a test like this Man, but the test is
.
You wasted your time, really.
Come on,
. This is like grade 6 level. Doing a pipe test with a restriction on one pipe verses a straight non restricted pipe??? Oh boy, 
.
May the best man win, sort of speak; But do a fair test or not at all.
* I use the $$ 80mm Racing TI exhaust, so I am not taking either side, but this is ridiculous!
I know it takes time to do a test like this Man, but the test is
.You wasted your time, really.
Come on,
. This is like grade 6 level. Doing a pipe test with a restriction on one pipe verses a straight non restricted pipe??? Oh boy, .May the best man win, sort of speak; But do a fair test or not at all.
* I use the $$ 80mm Racing TI exhaust, so I am not taking either side, but this is ridiculous!
Feb 17, 2007, 11:46 PM
#19
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i'm sure you have all read this but here you go again.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=137651
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=137651
Feb 17, 2007, 11:58 PM
#20
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i'm sure you have all read this but here you go again.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=137651
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=137651
However, the point that many are missing here is that this thread was a "case study" that showed a car that was not working right - the diagnostic steps needed to try and track down what the problem was, and the solution.
In this case the problem was a poor flowing exhuast system
I proved that the mish mosh of various parts that made up this customer's exhuast "system" just DID NOT WORK
By installing the Buschur unit we verified that the exhuast "SYSTEM" previously on the car was NOT woking properly.
This test should be good food for thought.
Feb 18, 2007, 12:04 AM
#21
Non swayed and biased tests will get you more respect.
Stop changing things to skew the results in your favor will get you more respect.
Do a "VS" test with the ebay unit with test pipe VS the buschur unit with test pipe will get you more respect.
I tuned a 9 the other day with the "china crap omgzorz" Megan full turbo back with no cat on stock boost control and it made more HP than other 9's I have tuned with similar mods. What does that tell me? Maybe it was a stronger car, maybe the exhaust was better, maybe the moon was fuller, maybe the air was colder and denser... etc etc
Showing us boost plots and AFR plots will also get you more respect in a "VS" thread where you state that boost and the tune was unchanged. SHOW US.
Last edited by razorlab; Feb 18, 2007 at 12:15 AM.
Feb 18, 2007, 03:28 AM
#22
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No you didn't. One had a cat, one didn't.
Non swayed and biased tests will get you more respect.
Stop changing things to skew the results in your favor will get you more respect.
Do a "VS" test with the ebay unit with test pipe VS the buschur unit with test pipe will get you more respect.
I tuned a 9 the other day with the "china crap omgzorz" Megan full turbo back with no cat on stock boost control and it made more HP than other 9's I have tuned with similar mods. What does that tell me? Maybe it was a stronger car, maybe the exhaust was better, maybe the moon was fuller, maybe the air was colder and denser... etc etc
Showing us boost plots and AFR plots will also get you more respect in a "VS" thread where you state that boost and the tune was unchanged. SHOW US.
Non swayed and biased tests will get you more respect.
Stop changing things to skew the results in your favor will get you more respect.
Do a "VS" test with the ebay unit with test pipe VS the buschur unit with test pipe will get you more respect.
I tuned a 9 the other day with the "china crap omgzorz" Megan full turbo back with no cat on stock boost control and it made more HP than other 9's I have tuned with similar mods. What does that tell me? Maybe it was a stronger car, maybe the exhaust was better, maybe the moon was fuller, maybe the air was colder and denser... etc etc
Showing us boost plots and AFR plots will also get you more respect in a "VS" thread where you state that boost and the tune was unchanged. SHOW US.
Theres a thread on here of a catted 20glt car putting down stock turbo numbers. He removes the cat with atest pipe and hes back up where he needs to be. Who knows what the inside of that cat looked like.
I'd like to see Ebay exhaust no cat. with BR's Muffler DELETE.
VS.. BR DP, TEST, and CB with Muffler Delete. I think that would be a fair fair fair test.
As you can buy the ebay exhaust and 3 magnaflows for the price of the buschur exhaust.
You compared apples with oranges Al. Infact I don't understand why you even posted this. As soon as I saw the thread then saw the ebay exhaust had a cat. I thought bet the br unit didn't and started looking at pics. Pretty sad I automaticly assumed that. I'm sure others did to.
Once again. I find this test useless. If this was a science project you'd fail.
Feb 18, 2007, 03:49 AM
#23
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i wont say a thing about this guy, he shines by himself
but i will say one thing.. wrong exhaust u tested there Mr. from "A to B"
please dont make me post these pics again ...see the difference???
and NO FLEX
but i will say one thing.. wrong exhaust u tested there Mr. from "A to B"
please dont make me post these pics again ...see the difference???
and NO FLEX
Feb 18, 2007, 03:49 AM
#24
Those who will remember a while back Buschur and I offered to do some testing on his exhausts while I was out in Ohio. After a lot of pissing contests back and forth David Buschur basically decided to wash his hands of the situation as he was tired of all the nonsense and bickering back and forth. It pained me that David canceled the testing at the time becuase I knew that his exhuasts made a lot more power and I have seen it time and time again that on the dyno the cars with Buschur exhausts always made really great power while some other units seemed to always give problems. I knew what would happen if and when I had a chance to invest the time to do a test.
Some will remember that I referenced at the time that I bought a used Buschur Bullet V Band Exhaust system around the same time from a guy who was going back to stock and trading in his Evo.
Flash forward to today and at my shop we were installing some cams in a customers 2003 Evo 8 and a few other goodies and a custom reflash tune.
Thanks to Jimmy at www.theshopct.com for donating man force, time and dyno, lifts, tools to make this happen
Modifications were
Ebay Intake tube and upper fmic pipe with K & N Cone filter and adapter
Walbro fuel pump
Crower 272 cams
Gredy Pro fec B II EBC
Megan down pipe with flex
Perrin high flow cat
E Bay SS Auto Chrome Cat back
Invidia cast o2 housing
10.5 Hot side
93 octane 22 psi
(It should be noted that the customer selected ALL of his performance mods)
When I got the car on the dyno it just felt flat, dead and it wasn't making the kind of power that I would expect for a car with these mods.
The car was already boost leak tested and the plugs were changed before it got on the dyno.
Therefore, I did a compression test and saw that the 4 chambers were even at 175 per and the cam timing was dead on
There was a bit of a knock threshold issue so I drained the gas 100% and went to the local Sunoco station to grab some fresh 93 octane, the knock improved slightly but the car was still just as dead on power.
Although the TQ was decent the top end power was really flat and the car seemed corked up.
I suggested it was time to do an exhaust test and gladly The Shop agreed to donate the time to swap out the exhuasts and redyno
We installed the Buschur V Band Exhuast - along with a bone stock 02 housing (Buschur unit would not fit on the Invidia unit)
NOTHING other than the 02 housing, and full Turbo back exhuast was changed
SAME Boost, tune and dyno settings
This is a true A - B test
The results shocked even myself. Basically the Bushcur unit flowed so much air up top the a/f went nearly a point leaner with no changes and the car held nearly 1.5 psi more boost with the same boost settings at red line.
You will note that until 4,300 rpms the curves are identical - up top the free flowing Buschur Exhuast KILLS the E Bay junk
I will note that I knew this would happen as the best exhaust on a turbo car is NO EXHUAST
Flex sections kill power
Tiny mufflers with small holes in them kill power (what good is a 3" exhuast with a small hole through the muffler?)
Look at all this junk under your car - so many connections and joints
Here is my used Buschur V Band testing unit
Disclaimer - these are the results of a test on ONE car. While they do support what I have known all along about the difference between a well designed performance exhuast and a cheap exhuast, it is impossible to draw any far reaching conclusions from one test.
I will be doing more of this testing as time permits
You can imagine that unstraping a car from a dyno - putting it on a lift - changing exhuasts - re-dynoing - going back on the lift and re-installing the original exhuast is all time consuming and something we donate as far as time, labor and dyno fees to R & D
The customer drove the car with the Buschur exhuast (said it made his hair stand up) and with his el cheapo unit back on and he estimated he lost 25 whp by his butt dyno
It is what it is the results speak for themselves
Some will remember that I referenced at the time that I bought a used Buschur Bullet V Band Exhaust system around the same time from a guy who was going back to stock and trading in his Evo.
Flash forward to today and at my shop we were installing some cams in a customers 2003 Evo 8 and a few other goodies and a custom reflash tune.
Thanks to Jimmy at www.theshopct.com for donating man force, time and dyno, lifts, tools to make this happen
Modifications were
Ebay Intake tube and upper fmic pipe with K & N Cone filter and adapter
Walbro fuel pump
Crower 272 cams
Gredy Pro fec B II EBC
Megan down pipe with flex
Perrin high flow cat
E Bay SS Auto Chrome Cat back
Invidia cast o2 housing
10.5 Hot side
93 octane 22 psi
(It should be noted that the customer selected ALL of his performance mods)
When I got the car on the dyno it just felt flat, dead and it wasn't making the kind of power that I would expect for a car with these mods.
The car was already boost leak tested and the plugs were changed before it got on the dyno.
Therefore, I did a compression test and saw that the 4 chambers were even at 175 per and the cam timing was dead on
There was a bit of a knock threshold issue so I drained the gas 100% and went to the local Sunoco station to grab some fresh 93 octane, the knock improved slightly but the car was still just as dead on power.
Although the TQ was decent the top end power was really flat and the car seemed corked up.
I suggested it was time to do an exhaust test and gladly The Shop agreed to donate the time to swap out the exhuasts and redyno
We installed the Buschur V Band Exhuast - along with a bone stock 02 housing (Buschur unit would not fit on the Invidia unit)
NOTHING other than the 02 housing, and full Turbo back exhuast was changed
SAME Boost, tune and dyno settings
This is a true A - B test
The results shocked even myself. Basically the Bushcur unit flowed so much air up top the a/f went nearly a point leaner with no changes and the car held nearly 1.5 psi more boost with the same boost settings at red line.
You will note that until 4,300 rpms the curves are identical - up top the free flowing Buschur Exhuast KILLS the E Bay junk
I will note that I knew this would happen as the best exhaust on a turbo car is NO EXHUAST
Flex sections kill power
Tiny mufflers with small holes in them kill power (what good is a 3" exhuast with a small hole through the muffler?)
Look at all this junk under your car - so many connections and joints
Here is my used Buschur V Band testing unit
Disclaimer - these are the results of a test on ONE car. While they do support what I have known all along about the difference between a well designed performance exhuast and a cheap exhuast, it is impossible to draw any far reaching conclusions from one test.
I will be doing more of this testing as time permits
You can imagine that unstraping a car from a dyno - putting it on a lift - changing exhuasts - re-dynoing - going back on the lift and re-installing the original exhuast is all time consuming and something we donate as far as time, labor and dyno fees to R & D
The customer drove the car with the Buschur exhuast (said it made his hair stand up) and with his el cheapo unit back on and he estimated he lost 25 whp by his butt dyno
It is what it is the results speak for themselves
What data do you have that a flex section in the DP robs performance?
No doubt the BR exhaust is great, but this test is not a fair comparison.
Feb 18, 2007, 03:51 AM
#25
I concur that the support of home grown auto speed shops is critical if we want to have good products and innovation in new products as 90% of the ebay and china outfits just make poor knock offs of existing designs
However, the point that many are missing here is that this thread was a "case study" that showed a car that was not working right - the diagnostic steps needed to try and track down what the problem was, and the solution.
In this case the problem was a poor flowing exhuast system
I proved that the mish mosh of various parts that made up this customer's exhuast "system" just DID NOT WORK
By installing the Buschur unit we verified that the exhuast "SYSTEM" previously on the car was NOT woking properly.
This test should be good food for thought.
However, the point that many are missing here is that this thread was a "case study" that showed a car that was not working right - the diagnostic steps needed to try and track down what the problem was, and the solution.
In this case the problem was a poor flowing exhuast system
I proved that the mish mosh of various parts that made up this customer's exhuast "system" just DID NOT WORK
By installing the Buschur unit we verified that the exhuast "SYSTEM" previously on the car was NOT woking properly.
This test should be good food for thought.
As for a 'Case Study' -- you may want to submit this to Harvard for their review...
Feb 18, 2007, 03:58 AM
#26
This has been done....The added hp from a TBE (properly tuned before and after is ~15 - 20 whp). Most of the 'big' initial gains can be found by increasing the stock boost. I very much doubt that a BR 3" TBE will provide 5+ whp more than an 'eBay 3" TBE' and was hoping David's test would validate.
Feb 18, 2007, 08:31 AM
#28
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the thing i love about this whole thing... is.........
WE own 30+ thousand dollar cars.. and lots of people are *****ing about paying $825 shipped to your door. for a tbe. what a joke..
my last car. 04 gto. a full exhaust with cats would cost. $1800+ the set up i wanted. was $1972 + shipping. almost another $100.
so as you can see, 825 shipped is way the hell better than 2k.
i orderd my buschur tbe last week. cant wait to get it!!
WE own 30+ thousand dollar cars.. and lots of people are *****ing about paying $825 shipped to your door. for a tbe. what a joke..
my last car. 04 gto. a full exhaust with cats would cost. $1800+ the set up i wanted. was $1972 + shipping. almost another $100.
so as you can see, 825 shipped is way the hell better than 2k.
i orderd my buschur tbe last week. cant wait to get it!!
Feb 18, 2007, 08:58 AM
#29
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I don't understand why all you ebay and megan owners are so defensive about your purchases. It seems that some of you are so fixated on these units that you wont listen to reason.
To me, looking at that dyno result I measured last night ITS SHOCKING how much extra power was made with the Buschur Exhuast.
Clearly, the Buschur products have demonstrated what I have been observing all along for the past years of tuning evos.
If some of your guys who have "invested" in cheap ebay products want to say that all of the power gains in this study came from removing the high flow cat - THAT IS FINE WITH ME. My main thrust is that a poorly set up exhuast syetem can result in a bad running car.
I will be back to test more configurations against the Buschur Unit - hopefuly we can find one with no high flow cats soon
Any volunteers?
To me, looking at that dyno result I measured last night ITS SHOCKING how much extra power was made with the Buschur Exhuast.
Clearly, the Buschur products have demonstrated what I have been observing all along for the past years of tuning evos.
If some of your guys who have "invested" in cheap ebay products want to say that all of the power gains in this study came from removing the high flow cat - THAT IS FINE WITH ME. My main thrust is that a poorly set up exhuast syetem can result in a bad running car.
I will be back to test more configurations against the Buschur Unit - hopefuly we can find one with no high flow cats soon
Any volunteers?
Last edited by DynoFlash; Feb 18, 2007 at 09:03 AM.
Feb 18, 2007, 10:03 AM
#30
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I don't see any restrictive bends.
Not one flange that you claim to be a restriction of any kind.
This test is a farce. Smoke and mirrors...whatever the words to describe it, its a sham. Stopping pushing it down peoples throats allready.
Enough of the exhaust tests. If anyone has a question about exhaust flow, take a course in thermodynamics. It will make everyone here see a little bit more clearly thru the smog of bs being presented in this thread.
Not one flange that you claim to be a restriction of any kind.
This test is a farce. Smoke and mirrors...whatever the words to describe it, its a sham. Stopping pushing it down peoples throats allready.
Enough of the exhaust tests. If anyone has a question about exhaust flow, take a course in thermodynamics. It will make everyone here see a little bit more clearly thru the smog of bs being presented in this thread.