DeiPro

In regards to completing a test of this nature, I would also suggest the use of an engine dyno, specifically one that is conducted in a true test cell.

When it comes to Factory calibration, the typical route involves engine dyno testing first, followed by extensive road testing, and then back and forth until the final calibration is reached.

I feel that it is extremely difficult for any performance shop to conduct the perfect test for something like this, even if all the care in the world is taken. There are simply too many variables that need to be held constant. I dont know of many shops in the United States that even have a worthy test cell to do it in.

One thing that I like about engine dynos is that the loading is far more consistant than chassi dynos, especially the very large eddy current ones used in OEM facilities. What I see a lot on chassi dynos is insufficient cooling for the retarders, and therefore inconsistent loading.

I would bet that the manifold with the best results will most likely have the largest plenum volume and the shortest runners.

Good Luck on the test, I am interested in the results!

jigga

iTrader: (5)

Actually, the stupidest thing I've ever heard, or seen for the purposes of this thread, is the test being conducted. Honestly, I want to see these parts either tested on a engine dyno, or show me that the part has made you go faster where it really matters: AT THE TRACK! You say air quality differences, so pick a desirable day at a place where such factors remain equal. I work in the car industry and this is how testing is conducted: on the field. Manufacturer of cars spend millions on R&D by using 2 tools, a engine dyno and a testing facility.

You say driver error, what do you think dataloggers are made for?? If the driver screws up his/her tuner can easily pull the log out of the ECU or dash and review it with the driver, gear by gear. God knows I've gotten yelled at for such inconsistencies like shifting too late, shifting too slow, etc. The driver has to develop consistency, maybe a automatic transmission might help, or someone who can drive properly. I've seen Eric from AMS drive the shop car back to back running 171-172MPH consistently. Paul, Im not aiming this at you in any way. I've seen your videos and think you're doing a good job behind the wheels of your car.

Besides the 2 things you mentioned against testing it at the track, I can think of several other reasons why testing at a track might not be favorable. But at least it will be better than on a chassis dyno, at least in my eyes. I buy parts that make me go faster, not parts that make a roller spin faster.

Why not gather all these intake manifolds and send them to Simon overseas so he can test them on his engine dyno? He's got his dyno all setup for a 4g63, Im sure he has a engine he can use to test this with a agreable turbo choice, the right facility, etc.

Again, I favor a engine dyno. If not, then my opinion is that this test is useless. Actually, I would favor he who pays me the most considering the amount of sales of manifolds that might lead to the results of this test. One word that I learned which is common practice in such cases: knob it! Those that know what Im talking about dont need an explanation.

jigga

iTrader: (5)

OK, I hadnt read this before posting.

Very good, exactly what I was trying to say yet you put it alot more eloquently and sounded alot more professionally.

PATRICK B.

iTrader: (5)

Jeff

We don't take any comments too serious here on the internet as we realize there are others that have more on the line than we do at the shop (we are still the small fish in a big ocean) but take a look back a few pages and you can see where i commented about the outside appearance of the manifold we sent Paul

He mentioned he'd like to test one and we happend to have one sitting around that we built as a prototype w/ a brand new welding unit w/ our new fab guy Jesse and it being his first day using it ........So we decided that would be a prefect one to send over and that's why he got it so quickly.

We offer them polished or coated if you like.

Plus i didn't know this would turn into a beauty contest

Can't wait for the results to be posted up!

Paul Nelson

iTrader: (1)

Look i agree with what your saying but man im doing this by taking time off of my work and for fun i figure to do this test all the way is going to take 2 weeks. I just dont see everything butting up just perfect so that will take some time. What everyone is going to get is dyno done on a 35r kit than dyno done on a 45r. I will post up our aem log sheets on each manifolds and each dyno sheet than overlay each sheet to each manifold. Thats the best i can do

itzwolf

iTrader: (9)

Looking forward to this, awesome asset to the community Paul!

jigga

iTrader: (5)

Hey, Im in no way trying to bash your idea. I actually am very intrigued to see how you go about conducting the test, what kind of data you'll provide us with at the end, how it will be presented, etc. It all sounds really good, no matter how accurate or how in depth the testing will be. I dont post very often yet I've been playing with evos for a long time now, anywhere from road racing, to hillclimbing, to a total drag race fanatic recently, so I really like what you're doing and am very intrigued at what will come out of all this. I admire you for taking your time and going about this the way you are. Plus, you get to do something that most people dont have a chance to do: test a product before committing to buying it. Knowing this, I know your results will be totally honest because I see you doing this for the benefit of performance, and not to promote anyone's product or shop.

One reccomendation, I would test each part using the platform or engine/turbo combination that you plan on using for next year. This way you can share your findings, plus benefit your own project simultaneously. Just my opinion.

Im also shooting for a large plenum/short runner being the winner. Some of us have seen Brent Rau's simple barrel style manifold and runners before. Big plenum, short runners, BIG POWER!

scorke

iTrader: (18)

queue the music....


















TAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaakkkkeeee it to the limit...... ah


Scorke

LT1runner

iTrader: (8)

Thanks alot! I'm not in the market for one of these intakes seeing as my car is a daily driver. But I give you guys BIG props for having the *****, the cash, the time, and the patience in dealing with the arm chair engineer\bench racer comments that have been posted and are yet to come! They're not even thinking about taking this on. Thanks

slowTsi

While ideal, an engine dyno is completely unfeasible. You mention the amount of money and time trying to R&D for the auto industry and you have to remember this is on a volunteer basis. I'm sure they want to go through the trouble of pulling the car apart just to put it on an engine dyno. Not to mention you yourself buy parts to go faster, yet the engine dyno is also stationary. There seems to be some flaweed logic on your part. In addition, just take a look at the power level we are talking about and realize that parts breakage is common at this level. Why subject the driveline to any more abuse than it already has to endure?
As far as which mani will make you faster, I would hope you could look at the dyno cheets and fuel tables to find out which one makes more power and or has the better curve. Maybe you want a dyno quen set up. It will be clearly visible which one makes the most power. Maybe you want the boradest powerband. This will also be evident.
If the car already has a SMIM (in this case it obviously does) it doesn't take any time at all to swap them out on the dyno. You wouldn't even have to unstrap the car.
Maybe you can offer your sevices to pull the car apart, transport the motor to a proper facility, pay the fees, and then put it back together. Or, you can just live with the fact that ETS will do the testing on their own awd dyno

jigga

iTrader: (5)

SlowTsi, Im not trying to battle you with a keyboard here. You basically attacked me stating that what I had said in a previous post was "the stuppidest thing you had ever heard..." Just trying to defend what I said previously sir. I never take things personal, but obviously what I vaguely said previously needed additional support since it wasnt clear enough. Some people need things clarified thoroughly in order for them to understand someone else's opinions.

This is how I would consider testing:

engine development (such as a intake manifold) = engine dyno

drivetrain and safely tuning prior to testing = chassis dyno

fine tuning and evaluating performance = track/test field

Maybe not the best of way of putting it, but this is how I see testing..

You mentioned subjecting the driveline to further abuse. On a engine dyno, obviously there is no drivetrain, thus no abuse. A lot less chance for something to break, dont you think? Especially on a vehicle with such a complex drivetrain like the evo. I would prefer a engine dyno for such extensive testing since Im only risking a motor, not my tranny or t-case, or carrier, or anything else..

I understand that a engine dyno is not an option for Paul at this time. I like what he's doing and I support it. Will make good reading material.

Paul Nelson

iTrader: (1)

Here is a update on AMS. Man the manifold is huge!

itzwolf

iTrader: (9)

First time I saw a VSR in person I said the same thing.

You got to see one in person that is polished to a mirror finish. You just want to hang it on the wall for decoration

Paul Nelson

iTrader: (1)

They look like battle ships

AutoMotoSports

iTrader: (42)

Here is our new big boy drag version that we are sending paul for testing.

It should be in the mail today or tomorrow at the latest.

This version will be available to the public soon.