My JAM Nightmare
Apr 2, 2011, 09:44 AM
#1
Newbie
Thread Starter
My JAM Nightmare
Hi everyone,
I know many of you will have had good experiences with Jackson Auto Machine, but I just wanted to share the nightmare I had with them over the last 8 months or so.
September 2010
I send an email to Jam regarding the new build teething problems. I explained that one of the core plugs was leaking and the morosso sump was also weeping. During the mapping session the car cut out.
My tuner put his computer on to diagnose it and it turned out to be the crank sensor. He ordered a new one for the next day with a backing plate just in case. When he took off the cover (I was there) he immediately noticed that the balancer shaft tensioner had been put on backwards! This means the balance belt was out of line and catching on the metal plate behind the backing plate. We found the crank sensor to have some wear and the balance belt all frayed at the edges. The main crank bolt was also slightly loose when checked. I am so lucky the crank sensor died before the balance belt broke! Phew..So, the next morning I got up early to go to mitsubishi to get the parts (very expensive over here!) and back to the tuners..my tuner fitted the crank sensor and it started immediately.
Photo prior to taking the tensioner off:
Photo of how it was installed. Notice the lip on the wrong side:
Worn crank sensor:
This resulted in the balance belt spinning at an angle and slightly catching on the metal backing plate. You can see the frayed belt and backing plate here: How lucky was I this didn’t snap?
Cost in parts alone: £140 but the car is now working. 470 ATW and revs to 8.5k. Great!
A week later I receive an email from Carmela at JAM. She said she had been out of the country all week and only just got back.
I then reply and get this
Note that her reply didn’t mention anything about the balance shaft tensioner pulley being put on the wrong way round! She seemed to pass this off as “bad luck”.
Next one:
I then compete in the MLRSS Silverstone on Oct 2nd. The car had been using lots of oil and blowing it out into the catch tank…it was getting from bad to worse:
Note that the JAM running in process is 30 minutes off boost using their running in oil. I suspected this would result in the engine using oil but stuck to their way of doing it as instructed by the supplied sheet by JAM.
Carmela’s reply:
My Reply:
Carmela:
Me:
Carmela:
I then installed 2 clear plastic bottles as catch tanks in order to view the oil usage better. It used 400ml of oil when cruising for 70 miles. Both clear bottles were empty. I gave it a quick burst of power the next day and 200ml shot out. I only drove in a straight line to about 130mph. Quite surprising. Interestingly it only comes out of the pipe at the back of the rocker cover near the mivec cam. Nothing comes out of the pipe at the side of the rocker cover
Carmela’s reply to the above information:
I then get a leakdown test:
Piston 1 : 6%
Piston 2: 21%
Piston 3: 22%
Piston 4: 16%
As presumed, the conclusion is the engine is suffering from "blow-by" due to the very short, off boost running in process. The bores were basically glazed over.
Carmela’s reply to the above:
.
I then had a second tuner do a leak down test which showed 10-11% on all 4 cylinders. Very strange as the engine had just used 1 litre of oil in 135 miles. Nothing in the catch tank as I was cruising. As soon as I go on boost though, the catch tank gets full very quickly. I also started having a problem with the clutch. First it feels tight, then it feels slack and I can’t get gear properly. I then get the clutch master cylinder changed and there’s no difference. I then order a new Superclutch cover plate at around £300 as it seems to be the clutch problem?
I also emailed Carmela about the smoke from my car on this video:
http://s334.photobucket.com/albums/m...t=DSCF2006.mp4
Her reply:
Is anyone seeing a pattern here? So many issues but NOTHING is JAM’s fault. It’s always “Something else”, but the above is nothing compared what was found next:
November 2nd.
I turn up to the tuner’s with the cover plate. We first decide to sort out the issue with the Morosso sump weeping. There was a fair bit of oil under the car after 600 miles so it was time to clean that up and get the sump resealed. Upon taking the sump off we found thrust bearing in the sump.
The head was also not looking too good:
We emailed JAM the photos. Carmela requested the clutch assembly and inlet. When I asked why she replied:
After many emails pestering for a written report from one of their engineers I only received this from Carmela:
These are the photos I received apparently proving the thrust bearing fell into the sump due to det:
I then asked for JAM’s leak down test results
Pretty similar to the first leak down test but not the 2nd.
Next email from JAM…
A quote? Why the hell was I receiving a quote? DET is a downwards force, surely it would take a lateral force to pop out the thrust bearings? Surely the big end bearings would be damaged with massive det? This is the opinion of more than one UK tuner plus an Aeronautical engineer. It was now time to see if we could make JAM understand what really happened to me 2.2 engine.
Cue Clive W for an independent diagnosis. We sent the thrust bearings of to Clive and it didn’t take him long to work out what had REALLY happened:
So, that explains it! A thrust bearing had been put in the wrong way. Phew, looks like I won’t have to pay that quote for 4 grand! I’ll send the evidence off to JAM. Being a reputable company they are bound to be fair, and understand the above evidence is conclusive? Naaa not JAM. Nothing is their fault. Their work cannot possibly be questioned?
The struggle continued:
1st December:
...and so did the search for excuses:
Then all of a sudden whenever I ask for an update, Carmela has the flu, someone has died etc. Her personal problems suddenly become my problem. Whether they were true or not, you could forgive me for being a little skeptical during all this.
3rd December - Next email:
Funnily enough there was no offer of covering costs for the crank sensor and time it took to fix. Carmela merely send a balancer belt. More….
…Right…OK….anyway, at this stage I was thinking “Can I have my 2.2 now please? I don’t care if you admit fault or not, I just want what I paid for!”.
Eventually, in March 2011, I received an engine. Only what I received was not quite what I was expecting. I had previously paid JAM around £400 to build my 2.2 into a long block so the engine could be put straight into my car. What I got was an engine with a cracked oil pump and a chunk missing out of one of the cam pulleys. More expense! The engine also came as a shortblock and head! The gaskets I had paid for, studs etc…these all need to be bought again! Ok, fair enough I’ll take that on the chin, I am just glad I got something back. Jam didn’t charge me any money for the new engine, but I was left thinking, what if they have made a mess of this engine too? It needs checking, no, in fact, it needs rebuilding. Sod going through all this again. Cue MLR life savers TRL developments. The engine I now have installed in my car is built properly by them, and mapped by them. They have done a fantastic Job as usual and enabled me to come 3rd in the recent MLRSS at Silverstone. One last kick in the teeth though, was the night before getting the car mapped I emailed Carmela. I had a horrible thought. What if JAM had sent me a 2.3 instead of a 2.2? Here’s the response to that email:
WTF? I paid for a 2.2 with the mega expensive k1 billet crank! I’m sure the 2.3 is great, but the reason I got rid of my original 2.4 was because I wanted a revving machine that had a great rod ratio! For god sake! Not happy, but at the same time, I could have ended up with nothing at all looking at the way JAM have conducted themselves over the past 6 months. Carmela didn’t even have the courtesy to email me prior to asking, to say that’s what they were doing…sending me a 2.3!
When I asked Carmela why…this was her reply.
We had already previously explained I am running a superclutch which is a push type clutch. This is why the engine lasted for as long as it did rather than 15 minutes. But no, she chooses to ignore that yet again! We still have not had an official engineers report from JAM. No real diagnosis with authority…just “The tune was bad”. Apparently a bad tune will pop out your thrust bearings. Physically impossible in this case but true according to JAM. After being ignored for the next few emails chasing this up, here’s the last email from Carmela. I think it sums up JAM’s professionalism in one fell swoop.
I don’t know about you guys but in my profession when I can’t do something for someone I don’t start giving a list of my personal problems to the customer.
I know many of you will have had good experiences with Jackson Auto Machine, but I just wanted to share the nightmare I had with them over the last 8 months or so.
September 2010
I send an email to Jam regarding the new build teething problems. I explained that one of the core plugs was leaking and the morosso sump was also weeping. During the mapping session the car cut out.
My tuner put his computer on to diagnose it and it turned out to be the crank sensor. He ordered a new one for the next day with a backing plate just in case. When he took off the cover (I was there) he immediately noticed that the balancer shaft tensioner had been put on backwards! This means the balance belt was out of line and catching on the metal plate behind the backing plate. We found the crank sensor to have some wear and the balance belt all frayed at the edges. The main crank bolt was also slightly loose when checked. I am so lucky the crank sensor died before the balance belt broke! Phew..So, the next morning I got up early to go to mitsubishi to get the parts (very expensive over here!) and back to the tuners..my tuner fitted the crank sensor and it started immediately.
Photo prior to taking the tensioner off:
Photo of how it was installed. Notice the lip on the wrong side:
Worn crank sensor:
This resulted in the balance belt spinning at an angle and slightly catching on the metal backing plate. You can see the frayed belt and backing plate here: How lucky was I this didn’t snap?
Cost in parts alone: £140 but the car is now working. 470 ATW and revs to 8.5k. Great!
A week later I receive an email from Carmela at JAM. She said she had been out of the country all week and only just got back.
Send me over some pictures if possible showing the problem and pieces. I am very interested in seeing this. Keep a check on your Moroso pan as it is aluminium and will expand and contract at a different rate from the stock pan. The fasteners may try and loosen up now and then because of this. Once all the bugs are worked out you are gonna fly!
Sounds like some bad luck stuff going on. The Crankshaft pulley was installed and torqued to spec using Loctite to secure the bolt. I cannot understand how it could have come loose- The engine was fired up and ran smooth, revved clean and fast as stated in the first email. If the pulley was loose then not only would you see it wobble about the engine would not operate smoothly. I will get a new PE belt on the way to you-the stock belt is ok but never lasts like the PE ones. The oil leak? is the leak coming from the pan rail? We have used several of these pans and not experienced any leaks. However the bolts may need to be retorqued after heat cycling has occurred due to the dissimilar metals.The engine with the new Moroso oil pan, plus the oil filter, oil cooler lines, turbo lines, oil return line, I would check the oil level on the dip stick to be sure. Stock is 4.5 qts in the pan alone.
Next one:
You noticed the big difference between your old and new engine. You will never find a better running, faster revving engine from anyone. Sorry for the belt issue-this is not typical for us at all. Normal is flawless!
I have noticed that my dip stick reads low very often. I topped it up and after 2-3 laps on track the dip stick was showing half way. I topped it up for the drive home and it's used some again!
The catch tank is full. It must be 2.5 litres which is around the amount of oil I have put in already. So it seems the catch tank is taking in a lot of oil. Is this normal? Is it good? Can't imagine what it would be like if I do a 15 min race.
The catch tank is full. It must be 2.5 litres which is around the amount of oil I have put in already. So it seems the catch tank is taking in a lot of oil. Is this normal? Is it good? Can't imagine what it would be like if I do a 15 min race.
Carmela’s reply:
No you should not be using, pushing, leaking any oil. The engine holds more oil because of the pan. Did you see the sheets we sent with the engine? Read the My break in sheet details as it describes everything and why it needs to be done.
Yes I read the papers and did the running in procedure up at Paul's.
Not sure if it is using oil, but there is a lot in the catch tank...it's full!
Bit of a worry really.
Not sure if it is using oil, but there is a lot in the catch tank...it's full!
Bit of a worry really.
Go ahead and do a leak down and compression test. That will tell us if there is a problem with the cylinders sealing. If it all checks out then there must be a problem with the crank case ventilation system.
If there is a problem with the cylinders not being sealed what is the next step?
First things first, the engine is fine-you have another issue I am betting. It could also be a baffle issue in the valve cover. Just start at the leak down,ok.
We can guess at different possibilities all day long.
We can guess at different possibilities all day long.
Carmela’s reply to the above information:
Sounds like the PCV valve is malfunctioning, the one that works when you are on boost.
Piston 1 : 6%
Piston 2: 21%
Piston 3: 22%
Piston 4: 16%
As presumed, the conclusion is the engine is suffering from "blow-by" due to the very short, off boost running in process. The bores were basically glazed over.
Carmela’s reply to the above:
Ok, sounds like there is an issue with the piston rings but now we need to figure out what caused this to happen. Before we sent your engine over it was tested here on the stand and showed 6-8% on your new engine. With our special cylinder wall finishes and techniques we have seen 3-4% numbers after break in. I am leaning towards an injector issue as the number you have supplied for cylinder 2-4 show the 16-22% leakage yet #1 shows only 6%, this makes me think a cylinder specific issue.
We now have a problem but we need to find out what actually caused this problem, that means trouble shooting. If we do not find the cause we will have the problem again and again.
I know it is not anything wrong with our piston rings or the install as they were tested here before shipping, so lets look to something bolted to the engine next-any input you may have let me know
We now have a problem but we need to find out what actually caused this problem, that means trouble shooting. If we do not find the cause we will have the problem again and again.
I know it is not anything wrong with our piston rings or the install as they were tested here before shipping, so lets look to something bolted to the engine next-any input you may have let me know
I then had a second tuner do a leak down test which showed 10-11% on all 4 cylinders. Very strange as the engine had just used 1 litre of oil in 135 miles. Nothing in the catch tank as I was cruising. As soon as I go on boost though, the catch tank gets full very quickly. I also started having a problem with the clutch. First it feels tight, then it feels slack and I can’t get gear properly. I then get the clutch master cylinder changed and there’s no difference. I then order a new Superclutch cover plate at around £300 as it seems to be the clutch problem?
I also emailed Carmela about the smoke from my car on this video:
http://s334.photobucket.com/albums/m...t=DSCF2006.mp4
Her reply:
This may be from oil laying in the exhaust system. It would burn off and then run clean. Check the spark plugs and see if they too are wet or dry.
November 2nd.
I turn up to the tuner’s with the cover plate. We first decide to sort out the issue with the Morosso sump weeping. There was a fair bit of oil under the car after 600 miles so it was time to clean that up and get the sump resealed. Upon taking the sump off we found thrust bearing in the sump.
The head was also not looking too good:
We emailed JAM the photos. Carmela requested the clutch assembly and inlet. When I asked why she replied:
Want to inspect everything. Thrust washers do not simply fail-something has caused this to happen,
Kenny, take a good look at the one photo Paul sent over to you, the one of the piston top, it shows how the piston top was melted away due to excessivly hot conditions. The top is gone around the intake pocket area.
Basically here is what we did when your engine arrived here;
1-We did a leak down as soon as the engine arrived here.
2-After the leak down we disassembled the engine and inspected the internals.
3-We then found all the piston rings had been washed out/excessive fuel-this caused the poor leak down percentages, the thrust washers locating area was gone in the block and the crank mirrored the same damage, the top of the piston was gone due to excessive heat/it was burned away. Excessive heat can be caused from several sources so we need to understand the source of the cause next to avoid a repeat problem. This means trouble shooting and not finger pointing.
Basically here is what we did when your engine arrived here;
1-We did a leak down as soon as the engine arrived here.
2-After the leak down we disassembled the engine and inspected the internals.
3-We then found all the piston rings had been washed out/excessive fuel-this caused the poor leak down percentages, the thrust washers locating area was gone in the block and the crank mirrored the same damage, the top of the piston was gone due to excessive heat/it was burned away. Excessive heat can be caused from several sources so we need to understand the source of the cause next to avoid a repeat problem. This means trouble shooting and not finger pointing.
I then asked for JAM’s leak down test results
Kenny, #1- 6 percent, #2- 20 percent, #3-15 percent, #4- 30 percent (I think) I am not near my desk but this is close. Before we shipped your engine we leaked it and was between 6-8 percent.
Next email from JAM…
Kenny, we are checking over the rods and cylinder head, get a quote together and check out all your options. How does that sound?
Cue Clive W for an independent diagnosis. We sent the thrust bearings of to Clive and it didn’t take him long to work out what had REALLY happened:
So, that explains it! A thrust bearing had been put in the wrong way. Phew, looks like I won’t have to pay that quote for 4 grand! I’ll send the evidence off to JAM. Being a reputable company they are bound to be fair, and understand the above evidence is conclusive? Naaa not JAM. Nothing is their fault. Their work cannot possibly be questioned?
The struggle continued:
1st December:
I am trying to find s good core block, the rods magged good but the pin ends will need rebushing- Sorry for the wait but I am doing everything possible.
Have you spoke with your "Tuner"?
Got any maps to view? A/F's?
What RPM's did they run the car up to?
Just want some info, please, this is important as they are not standing behind what has happened to your-our engine. I do not think this is too much to ask.
Have you spoke with your "Tuner"?
Got any maps to view? A/F's?
What RPM's did they run the car up to?
Just want some info, please, this is important as they are not standing behind what has happened to your-our engine. I do not think this is too much to ask.
As for the thrust being installed backwards the engine would never have run as long as it did without a serious problem right from the start, the end play in the engine would have been too tight as well. Where are the a/f being measured from? The revs were set at 8.5k how was this limited? with fuel cut?
3rd December - Next email:
We designed and built you a strong durable engine capiable of many races, street miles. It was built with your needs in mind and was not a shelf item we "Hoped" would suit your needs. The engine's life was cut short due to something out of our control and this is why it is so important to understand the failure. No pointing of fingers but an understanding to simply prevent this from happening again is all. Looking at the damage to the internals it showed us excessive fuel (rings were washed away) and detonation (top of piston gone and the shirts showed black death) No engine built could endure this enviiroment
Having good people to work, tune and support your performance needs is greatever we are all human and are subject to a mistake or error in judgment. We are people and not machines. When you contacted me about the pulley issue (on backwards) I did not hesitate to resolve this matter. I shipped your new belt and asked your tuner to change the belts and send me the costs-I was taking responability for something we did incorrectly. Now you have had a serious/premature engine failure and there is responsability taken or intrest shown as to why it happened at all. I have not said the your tuner could not tune-my position is that something has failed causing the end result.
Having good people to work, tune and support your performance needs is greatever we are all human and are subject to a mistake or error in judgment. We are people and not machines. When you contacted me about the pulley issue (on backwards) I did not hesitate to resolve this matter. I shipped your new belt and asked your tuner to change the belts and send me the costs-I was taking responability for something we did incorrectly. Now you have had a serious/premature engine failure and there is responsability taken or intrest shown as to why it happened at all. I have not said the your tuner could not tune-my position is that something has failed causing the end result.
Engines are stupid and they no idea where or when they are running only how. Engines respond to good air, correct oils, good spark, good fuel, proper A/F's. Their enviroment needs are pretty simple however; the higher the HP potential of an engine the less tolerant it is to errors or failed equiptment.
Eventually, in March 2011, I received an engine. Only what I received was not quite what I was expecting. I had previously paid JAM around £400 to build my 2.2 into a long block so the engine could be put straight into my car. What I got was an engine with a cracked oil pump and a chunk missing out of one of the cam pulleys. More expense! The engine also came as a shortblock and head! The gaskets I had paid for, studs etc…these all need to be bought again! Ok, fair enough I’ll take that on the chin, I am just glad I got something back. Jam didn’t charge me any money for the new engine, but I was left thinking, what if they have made a mess of this engine too? It needs checking, no, in fact, it needs rebuilding. Sod going through all this again. Cue MLR life savers TRL developments. The engine I now have installed in my car is built properly by them, and mapped by them. They have done a fantastic Job as usual and enabled me to come 3rd in the recent MLRSS at Silverstone. One last kick in the teeth though, was the night before getting the car mapped I emailed Carmela. I had a horrible thought. What if JAM had sent me a 2.3 instead of a 2.2? Here’s the response to that email:
Hi Kenny. It is a 2.3
Best oft luck for the season ahead.
Carmela
Best oft luck for the season ahead.
Carmela
WTF? I paid for a 2.2 with the mega expensive k1 billet crank! I’m sure the 2.3 is great, but the reason I got rid of my original 2.4 was because I wanted a revving machine that had a great rod ratio! For god sake! Not happy, but at the same time, I could have ended up with nothing at all looking at the way JAM have conducted themselves over the past 6 months. Carmela didn’t even have the courtesy to email me prior to asking, to say that’s what they were doing…sending me a 2.3!
When I asked Carmela why…this was her reply.
The Tune was bad. I am shocked by your message. NO engine would run past 15 min. With the thrust washer in backwards, that is a fact. The bearings are designed with oil grooves for proper lubrication, ifit wad backwards it would have failed before you left the garage. You never would have dtivrn it for miles and miles and raced it too. Not possible. That is why I said inspect the clutch, linkage as well.
Kenny thank for being such a self serving jerk.
I am not up to answering all of your stupid emails and questions.
My plate is quite full with serious matters. None of which you know about. My brother passed away a shottime ago and I am to settle his affairs, our mother had become very ill and I am in the midst of a divorce.
You are wrong about your failure. Your are absolutely wrong and not smart enough to know the difference. You do what ever you like Kenny and I wish you luck.
Thank you again for all the good press.
I am not up to answering all of your stupid emails and questions.
My plate is quite full with serious matters. None of which you know about. My brother passed away a shottime ago and I am to settle his affairs, our mother had become very ill and I am in the midst of a divorce.
You are wrong about your failure. Your are absolutely wrong and not smart enough to know the difference. You do what ever you like Kenny and I wish you luck.
Thank you again for all the good press.
Last edited by KennyRS; Apr 2, 2011 at 12:20 PM.
Apr 2, 2011, 09:45 AM
#2
Newbie
Thread Starter
continued....
It may seem obvious but one thing I will advise people going through an engine build is to make sure the company building your engine also maps it. I would also advise to stick to the tuners in the country you live in if you want any kind of real warranty.
I would like to thank TRL Developments, Clive W, Neverneverman for all their help during this long and painful period. I now have and engine that works. It has been a long long wait and thank God a certain MLR member kept me patient as I would have ended up with nothing at all.
I would like to thank TRL Developments, Clive W, Neverneverman for all their help during this long and painful period. I now have and engine that works. It has been a long long wait and thank God a certain MLR member kept me patient as I would have ended up with nothing at all.
Apr 2, 2011, 10:30 AM
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Sucks. Wonder how long this will stay up, are they a vendor on here? I made a post similar to this with facts/pictures and all (against PPI), and they took it down within a day. Guess your only allowed to share good experiences.
Apr 2, 2011, 12:03 PM
#7
Evolved Member
damn i read this id be pissed too, they sent u the wrong displacement engine with problems after it was all said and done, i would filed a complaint with the BBB(better business bureau) there known in the US, comin from both sides of the counter as a customer and workin as a service consultant, they should be obliged to fix the problems. personally if she gave me attitude like this i wouldve responded you leave your personal problems when you walk through the door to work. And if i spent a lot of money to get a ****ed up engine, I wouldve told them you either send me in perfect order what im payin for, or ill run a truck through your front door at your business and blow it up haha....sorry not a good analogy, but i hate shady companies that pass off blame, parts arent perfect, even the best engine builder can still have a part failure, doesnt mean its install related...ive had two clutches blow up on me in less then 3k miles not beatin on it or under 300 hp, defective rivot in clutch disc, and other clutch hub blew up in about 30 pieces...so moral of the story **** JAM, next time u need a rebuild hit up a reputable shop like buschur, AMS, STM, or MAP. sorry to hear about your ****, but do as I do, learn your lesson and dont trust a shady shop like them again.
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Apr 2, 2011, 12:23 PM
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Apr 2, 2011, 12:35 PM
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With that being said, I'm sorry you had a bad experience with them. It does strike me funny that they left the balance shafts installed on a built engine. Especially one that was being run up to 8500rpm. It also doesn't sit well with me you used a K1 crank. A quick Google search turned up a few thrust bearing failures.
Just to put this out there, I've never done any business with JAM. The fact that a sales representative is the one that gave you the diagnosis is a bit unsettling. They could have had a technician contact you. Also, the fact they she told you her personal problems is unprofessional. You should send her a bill for counseling fees! lol. Seriously though. I'm happy your car is up and running. Good luck with it in the future. This post won't stay up long as JAM is a sponsor on the forum. So I'm sure they will chime in soon and tell everyone what an a-hole you are.
For curiosities sake, do you mind sharing what the rest of your set up consists of? What engine management, turbo, cams, head work, and so on?
Apr 2, 2011, 01:17 PM
#13
The reason it didn't fail immediately is because it was the one that wasn't taking the clutch thrust loads, only crank float.
With both thrust bearings in front of me it was blindingly obvious that one had been installed incorrectly. What should have been the side against the crank (with the oil grooves) had absolutely no wear marks on it, and the other side of this bearing which would normally sit against the block, had massive wear and had turned blue from heat. (which it would as it's a steel backing plate with no oil grooves or tapers on the end for oiling!)
