donour

iTrader: (6)

As they should. They both do pretty much the same thing. When datalogging,
the Xede isn't much more than a glorfied 8bit ADC (analog to digital converter).

Say what!? The only scaling going on is signal/5.0*100. The LC-1 out #2 is an analog line. Comparing the two directly makes no sense. However, the value of AN1 is a direct sampling of the voltage.

How do I know this you ask? Well I just finished coding up my own version of dyno software that is now smart aware. If gives you AFR, knock, timing shift along with power plots.

Me either. If calibrated properly, AN1 _will_ be an accurate A:F reading.

I feel your pain. Where are those vishnu guys? They've been WAY too quiet the last few days.

d

Sackett

It just seems odd that Vishnu would target for an AFR of 9.8-10.2 though.

In the other thread, shiv told a member to shut off SMART, tune his AFRs to low 11s, then reenable smart. without making any smart table changes, wouldnt this just cause smart to try to tune back down to 10 again? this is why i am thinking we may be missing something. unless we are supposed to tune the smart fuel map, and shiv just forgot to mention that.

Sackett

oops sorry. in my head i was thinking of the high-speed datalogging of commslog. commslog logs in 0-255, not 0-100. so i was thinking of rescaling from 0-255 to 0-100. Of course this is not necessary when using the normal datalogging in XMap. (sorry, i havent datalogged with pyXede yet so i'm not sure about it.)

shiv@vishnu

iTrader: (20)

Hi guys,
As far as numerical AFR goes, the 02 sensor on my dyno (what i've been using to tune for as long as I can remember) doesn't agree with the 02 sensor from the LC-1. It doesn't really matter what is wrong or what is right since that has as much to do with calibration as anything else. Those voltage targets revealed in the SMART fuel table correspond with what I use when I tune. Don't get too hung up with the numerical conversion as I think it is too rich. Just shoot for the "zero line" in the SMART fuel table and you'll be fine. On race gas, the "zero line" is considerably leaner/higher in the graph, btw.

shiv

donour

iTrader: (6)

Do you have data to back this up? The values that I got pre-SMART seemed very realistic, although I didn't do a heads up comparison with another unit.

One thing I didn't do was the coast down calibration. I did honest-to-god free air calibration. I don't have datalogs from the SMART system yet as I've been working on the SMART-I-FYING my dyno software. I just finished integrating the knock reading this afternoon. I'll try some runs this evening.

Well it might matter. If LC-1 calibration isn't giving A:F readings that you believe are accurate, then it would be a lot harder for end users to veryify that they have calibrated their sensor correctly.

Feel free to take this discussion to the SMART Q/A thread.

d

x99percent

If you edit the LM output, then your "24" AFR (10.96:1) doesn't match up with other people's "24", and things can get *really* confusing.

Not that it *really* matters, but keeping the LM output the same between everyone makes comparing maps/logs a lot easier.

Rushin

iTrader: (4)

Agreed. Thats why it would be nice if everyone recalibrated their output to the exact same specs that shiv used when he made the smart fuel table

A418t81

iTrader: (5)

Donour, I look forward to the new version of your software (and I hope that you'll have the program take the raw data and apply the appropriate formulas )

donour

iTrader: (6)

Ok, well I just did some runs with SMART enabled to compare directly against older V3. Sure enough SMART was zeroing in to the low 10's:1 -- richer than most people think they want. However, when I looked closely at logs from the other night, I found that old V3 dropped down to 10.3:1 somewhere around 5500. The data is messy due to the extreme alpha nature of the software i'm using, but I have tons of faith in its correctness.

So for me, the question is no longer "is smart messing with my AFR?". Instead I'm wondering do all LC-1s read extra rich (bad) or are vishnu's base maps just extra rich (better).

d

USP45

iTrader: (13)

LC-1 reading extra rich = very bad sence most people have been taught that certain A/F's are "safe" i.e. 11.0 when really on it. It would suck to tune to a 11.0 to find that you have put your engine at risk by running 11.7's......

Sackett

Well thats great. So shiv didnt actually use the LC-1 to create these maps because he feel's its not as accurate as his dyno.

If we are all logging LC-1s and getting rich numbers, doesnt that kind of mean that shiv's o2 numbers are the ones that are off calibration? if he has been using this wideband for 'as long as he can remember', shouldnt wideband units be replaced fairly often to ensure correctness, especially when tuning (and i'm sure that thing has seen some leaded fuel too).

Secondly, here is the funny part: Vishnu will not sell the SMART kit without a LC-1 wideband, and is persistant that the whole system would be messed up if another unit was used. shiv even says himself that he didnt even use the LC-1's AFR values!! granted he used the voltage of the LC-1 to setup maps in the Xede, but the LC-1 AFR numbers are pretty much worthless. great.

At least now we know what the deal is. Shiv didnt tune SMART with an LC-1. If we are all seeing that our numbers are too rich, we can just adjust the smart map to fix it.

I, for one, will be tuning conservatively until i can double check my numbers on a dyno with a wideband....

USP45

iTrader: (13)

Hey Sackett, I read where you compares the commlog through the Xede to the logg you got on the LC-1. You said that they both ended up around 10.0-1, but did the whole log from start to finish mimic each other? Can you run a commlog and the LC-1 based software log at the same time, or one right after the other? I have to wonder if two independant logging programs come up with the same logg's, are those programs right or is the Dyno that Shiv used correct? I am not trying to say anyone is right or wrong, I would just like to know what data is correct. Is it possible that Shiv's O2 sensor is going out and giving false readings and that is what the SMART fuel map was based on? I wish I had the time to hit a dyno this weekend, but I will be out of town. There is no reason that someone should not be able to logg a run on the dyno and compare it to what the dyno says. I too am tuning using the #'s that commlog is spitting out, it would suck if it is saying that we are at say 10.0:1 when we are at 10.5:1.

First we need to know if commlog and LC-1 say the same thing..
Second, as soon as someone has a chance dyno on an independant dyno while logging and compare. If I can do so next weekend I will, it depends on if I have to go out of town again.....

Also, I am going to do two loggs, one with coast-down calibration and one with a free-air calibration when I get the chance, just to see. I might -100 the SMART fuel threshold as well to take it out of the equasion.

Sackett

I did basically back to back runs, and both logs showed very similar results.

If you think about it, LogWorks is logging the AFR that the unit is seing. it is a full digital signal (i'd assume?) from the LC-1 to LogWorks. what logworks sees is what really is there (of course, assuming calibration was done correctly)

Now, the xede is logging AN1In, which is simply the voltage output of analog output #2 of the LC-1. If you know the LC-1s analog output table (7.35 to 22.xx, verify in LMProgrammer) you know what voltage corresponds to what AFR in the LC-1. you only have to convert the Xede's 0-100 percentage (or 0-255 in commslog) over to the actual AFR using the formulas mentioned before.

If you do the formula and calculations correctly, what you are logging in the xede and what you are logging in logworks is the same!! it cannot be any different!! the question is not if logworks and xede are seeing different AFR's, its if the LC-1 _calibration_ is off, and if what is showing as a 10:1 AFR is actually a 10.2 or a 10.5. thus the need to double check by using a second meter, such as a dyno.

If we are all logging the LC-1 with LogWorks, and all seeing that the AFR's are rich, i think it is safe to assume our calibrations are 'very close', and that our calibration is just different from shiv's. thus, i believe it safe for us to lean out the smart fuel table.

Also note that shiv has never once given us an exact number for AFR. he has stated many times that he tuned using 'the wideband on his dyno' but he never said _WHAT_ AFR that wideband was showing. maybe he did shoot for a low 10 AFR so everyone wouldnt go blowing their motors. who knows.

I pretty much consider this case closed. i think we have all the info we need.

with that said, let the questions on timing and knock begin

shiv@vishnu

iTrader: (20)

Hi guys,

Please don't deviate from the "happy zone" when dialing in your Fuel table. 17-19% corresponds to around 10.5:1, not around 9:1 as suggested by the innovate calibration data. This is because the XEDE does not display a 0-5v input as a perfect 0-100% signal. There appears to be a small offset, especially at lower voltages which cause the %-to-voltage relationship to deviate a bit. This doesn't matter when replicating a signal (as the XEDE is designed to do). But it can lead to confusion when trying to interpret voltage as a percentage as many have been trying to do.

Perhaps I should post up the calibration notes I acquired from my session on the dyno (when I correlated an1 input percentages (from the LC-1) to AFR (from the wideband on my Dyno). I'll dig this up tomorrow and post them. Sorry for posting the Innovate calibration data which lead to all this confusion. To be honest, I structured the whole SMART fuel system upon AN1 %, and NOT around nominal AFR since that will differ from wideband to wideband brand. It was my attempt to avoid this confusion that resulted in all this whole other confusion.

So, once again, please don't think you are running super rich. Those AN1 targets perfectly replicate the AFR trace we tune for in all our baseline maps, as we have been for the last 3 years. Yes, they are a bit conservative. But in no case are they stupidly rich.

I'll post up more data tomorrow.

Shiv

Sackett

thanks shiv. now why didnt you tell us you had calibration notes before?!?

that is very good info to know, something that would have helped us make more sense of this over the last couple days. It does suck that the xede will have some amount of of 'inefficiency' reading in the voltages from the wideband, but your calibration notes should help us to see what this offset looks like.

im sure you understand that we are not flaming or anything of the sort, just trying to learn and get the most out of this system.