Sackett

I just got back from Infineon, watching the Muellerized Evo completely destroy the rest of the competition, including a Ferrari 360 Modena that couldnt even hang on the straits long enough to read the sticker on the back of the car.

BTW, it is about 450hp, runs an intake pipe/filter (looks kinda like an AEM, probably custom) and is tuned with an SAFC. Stock ECU, Stock BOV, Stock upper IC pipe. It's won 8 races in a row now, including beating out 3 V10 Vipers at Laguna Seca.

http://usracingsport.blogspot.com/

taenaive

iTrader: (20)

Well, When I changed my intake, I noticed a slight gain. I do street tune with my S AFC. And, my logger's averaged numbers over a month don't lie. However, there is a problem when engine bay gets too hot. Yes, It does lose the power. somehow, you have to devise something so that only cold air to get in to that intake. I took out the weather strip on the intake side, And that helped a lot! Also, I am working on to make a custom CAI box. I won't go back to stock box. I like to hear the turbo and bov sound.

nirvevo

iTrader: (10)

Yeah, may be he should have strated a new thread, but the continuity is interesting. The best anybody is offering is anecdotal hear-say. I like the look of an intake, but if cooler means better, then the box gets cooler air UNLESS you mod the air supply, like the one guy was talking about.

David@Vishnu

iTrader: (2)

Congrats to Kent he gets my nod for sure, but please dont try to make the point that this proves CAIs are great- It Doesnt. By that logic we beat many z06s, vipers, porsche turbos, and just about every other car with a stock airbox. Kents tools of domination our like ours an evo, awd, suspension and tire choice, determination and above all else- DRIVER.

Sackett

My point is that an intake can easily be tuned with as little as an AFC. Plain and simple. An AFC is as simple as car tuning gets, and they obviously have no problems on their car.

get faster

I'm reading everything here on intakes but I'll confirm that most of my problems stopped when I went back to the factory intake.

My first upgrades were the intake and exhaust and my violent fuel custs came immediately after that. I installed the xede and was able to minimize the fuel cuts but after month of trying everyting under the sun, I finally decided to take out my brand name cold air intake and most of my problems stopped immediately.

Noize

iTrader: (24)

Its nowhere near as plain and simple as you're suggesting. For the sake of science, I recently (like it arrived today and I installed it tonight) picked up one of those inexpensive HKS RS intake clones. Now, my car has been mapped several times by Shiv and myself on the dyno as I've added mods over time, but none have had nearly as profound a change on the running as this intake.

First of all, I went into Xmap and richened the mixture (added 3% points in) globally for an extra bit of safety till I got to the dyno. There's your SAFC comparison.

Second problem, there's a new slight hiccup in the 4000rpm range, which would likely require some attention to timing as well.

The third problem is that its loud, but that's subjective and doesn't really have any relevance here.

The last and biggest problem by far is that whenever you replace your MAF pipe with a full intake like this, you can pretty much throw your boost map away. Before on the stock airbox and with my last custom tune, I was making 298whp Dyno Dynamics pump gas and hitting 22psi when the boost comes up, then tapering to about 20psi by fuel cut. Now with only bolting on the RS clone intake, I'm still hitting 22psi in the middle, but tapering much worse and a lot faster- to the tune of 14psi by redline.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that just bolting an intake up on a tuned car is not a good idea. I bet that even with the added fuel, my MAF readings are probably still scary in some spots. I also know for a fact after having over 200 runs on the dyno and driving this car every day that I've lost probably 40whp from the boost drop and the fact the car needs a remap.

I'm still willing to test this intake on the dyno for the sake of an argument, but even just driving my car around the block has already made me decide to pull this intake off until I can get to the dyno.

Whether good or bad, I will report my results with the intake pre and post tuning.



The point of this post is that I pretty much proved that Shiv knows what he's talking about when he wants you to run the stock airbox if you don't have a custom dyno tuned map. The way the car runs with an aftermarket intake is so differently, that my maps will look nothing like they do now without some serious time on the dyno. Its even harder for a tuner to support several customers with shelf maps when there are several different intakes out there that are not similar to one another and would require drastically different custom tuning.

Sackett

So you're saying that your car runs crappy on an aftermarket intake after being tuned to the stock airbox? uh, duh.

My point is that if Shiv does a custom tune with your intake in place (or if you are able to tune) these problems should not be a concern. Add a heat shield to solve the temperature problems, and add a cold air tube, and you are all set.

i personally got an intake because 1. i just like the sound, 2. it helps free up a little space for a catch can or a new upper IC pipe. for these reasons, and if an aftermarket intake can be properly tuned, there is no reason one shouldnt buy one if so inclined.

EDIT: and shouldnt smart help with any changes the intake may make? are you SMART Noize? I have smart on mine, and havent had a chance to change any maps on mine, but I do have a wideband gauge on my dash, and everything seems in-line post-intake.


PS, anyone else think that keeping this thread going is serving any purpse? i doubt it. heheh.

Noize

iTrader: (24)

Obviously it needs to be remapped (esp the MAF) since I tuned it with the stock airbox. That's not a big deal. The thing that I think sucks is the boost drop. My car already has two bleeder tubes, and with this intake, it might not be able to make enough boost with both tubes in and the duty cycles at 100%. Obviously all intakes are different, but I'm not liking the boost issue at all.

No SMART yet. Soon, I hope! My point wasn't to say that all intakes suck. My point is to tune the car to the intake and see if I can post gains. My other point was to show that in a car with a mail/base map on an XEDE, an intake will probably still post a loss in WHP.

nirvevo

iTrader: (10)

PS, anyone else think that keeping this thread going is serving any purpse? i doubt it. heheh.[/QUOTE]


I honestly do think it's worth informed, intelligent, and courteous discussion.

Anecdotal evidence ( ... "well let me tell you about MY experience") usually does more to get in the way than help the disussion, but you do have to relate what you know in some fashion, we just have to be careful that we don't draw flawed conclusions from it.

One of the factors that is a law of combustion engine dynamics is: realtive air temperature has an effect on the efficeincy of an engine. Give it hotter air, performance drops. This "law" is sighted in countless tuning books.

If my engine bay is averaging 130 deg , and the air inside the box is 115 deg, that offset is at least worth looking at. I have a Dynorad in my car, and while it has it's limitations in how it corresponds to the local dyno, it measures consistently on the same strecthes of road that are as flat as I can find. When the atmosphere temp drops, my power goes up. Most everyone that has worked around this stuff knows this and it is even a part of the way they tune etc....

So, unless the airbox TRULY introduces restricting factors that over shadow the increased flow area of the aftermarket intake, the cooler air will give an advatage to the airbox Evo. That is really where the crux of the matter seems to lie.

Running straight down a 1/4 mile track, may be even having iced everything down, if properly tuned, will give the advantage to the aftermarket intake, everything else being equal.

But driving around town, popping in and out of the local burger stand, or on hot days at a road race event when cars are gasping for cool air, would likely be the airbox Evo's advantage, ... again assuming the point about the restriction not being greater than the temperature difference and advantage that I cited above, remains true. ( atmospheric temps may play into this in colder weather, I will concede that below a certain temp, the box MAY loose it's avantage, you'd have to test that.)


Sorry for the book, frankly I much prefer the look of the aftermarkets, I returned one that I bought based on my reasoning above and it slowed my car down.

Somebody prove my wrong so that I can buy one in good conscience and look cool when I lift the hood. It ain't easy looking stock, especially when athe rest of my mods are barely visible, except the exhaust and show-off valve.

gsujeff55

iTrader: (4)

2ND, i just went back to stock intake and HOLY CRAP. My driveability is back....YESSSS. Car runs good at low speeds without bucking around(<10mph). Its great.

Ludikraut

iTrader: (17)

I'm in the process of building a cold-air-intake box for my K&N cone filter. And yes, I agree with others in that my drivability is noticeably worse at the moment. I managed to get a lot of it back with a better "show-off" valve (LOL), as I went from my trusty Greddy type-S to a type-RS, but drivability is still not where I want it to be. We'll see if the Cold Air Intake helps at all. Idle vacuum of only -12 isn't helping either. :-|

l8r)

Sackett

See, i just bolted on an AEM intake, didnt TOUCH my maps, and my driveability and AFR is not affected _at all_. I do have SMART, maybe that makes a difference..

I did notice a slight reduction in boost however, but that could be due to the fact that i have an 05, which should be using a boost solenoid emulator, which i wasnt given with my kit. we'll see once that is in place.


Oh, and in regards to Ludi's post above, i also have a Greddy RS BOV. maybe that helps a bit too?

Ted B

iTrader: (6)

What people need to realize is that MAFs are very sensitive to the quality of airflow, which is oftentimes upset when drugstore-grade intake systems are installed. Just this past week, we saw one Ford vehicle with an aftermarket intake lose all it's troublesome, confusing quirks simply by reorienting the cone filter assembly about 45 degrees. The MAF wants to see laminar flow. Any turbulence will cause the MAF to give erroneous and/or erratic signals. This accounts for the poor driveability reported by some.

When the MAF signal log looks like a rollercoaster on the dyno, yes, it can be tuned to some degree. FWIW however, it's a band-air fix to a fundamental engineering shortcoming, and the ones that I've tuned to give better results (in other applications) never really seemed to perform to expectations. I might also add that I'm not to hot on running oiled filters with MAFs. The MAF always seems to accumulate oily residue that slowly (read: unnoticeably) degrades the accuracy of the signal.

Just some FYI.

nirvevo

iTrader: (10)

Those are all excellent points. An Aftermarket Intake has to be high quality and installed properly before any worthwhile assessment can be made.

But even if the intake is working at it's optimum efficeincy, we still return to the point of the difference in temp between outside air from the airbox scoop and engine bay heated air.

On another point, if you relocate the intake in order to get a straight shot at the air comming in, you have to consider the effects of driving in wet sloppy weather (if you stick the intake way down on the grill area like some installations have called for in other cars). I can't get past the idea that it might suck in at best, water, at worst road grime.


I will start testing temps inside and outside the box again. The change in weather over the next few weeks in Colorado should provide some interesting contrasts in ambient temp differences. All of my previous testing was done in 80 to 105 deg weather.