shiv@vishnu

iTrader: (20)

It was a nice cool day outside. Inside, shop temps were in the 60-70F range due to the fact that there was a huge (about the size of a Volkwagen beetle) ceiling mounted industrial heater blowing a column of hot air right in front of the cars. Needless to say, this is also where most people stood to keep warm. The guys at the shop wouldn't let me turn it off either

All the cam'd cars were, AFAIK, running our suggest cam timing of -2-2 or -3-3. The STis are torque monsters indeed. The other one I did (dyno not shown) make 360+lb-ft of torque and 315whp with a VF22 turbo.

Cheers
shiv

SILVER SURFER

The temp sensor should have been in the same area? even if it was say 65F instead of 55F (as the sensor indicated), thats still a pretty big difference from say 78F. I think if these same cars were dynoed in warmer conditions, like you did at Alamo, the numbers would be a lot closer. I know most of the vendors show uncorrected numbers in the winter and SAE, (or even better STD) in the summer. It's all part of the numbers game, you can't win if you don't play .
Corrected, uncorrected, either way they are still showing good results. It's just that for comparison sake from one location to another, it's a much more accurate representation with SAE corrections. Some people believe that the SAE corrections over compensate, especially for turbo cars. I can't say for barametric pressure, but for tempurature with the EVO I found them to be a bit conservative. Without changing any thing on the car and using SAE corrections, I see slightly more power (5-10WHP) in cooler weather.

Regarding the cam timming, at least with the 272/272 combo. Have you tried increasing the seperation? Say -3 or -4 on the intake and -2 or -1 on the exhaust? With all of the backpressure created by the stock turbo, the overlap of the 272/272 seems to be too much. I have had good results with these settings, and the idle and low RPM power improve dramatically.
I started out with 0/0 and then -3/-3, and that definiatly showed an improvement. I then started trying different combinations on the street doing timed acceleration runs (40-100). Starting with -3/-3 I was getting consistent 7.8 - 8 second times. I finally settled on -4/-1 and 40-100MPH runs dropped to 7 - 7.2 seconds, and the idle and low speed torque were greatly improved. The temp did not seem to change much during my test, but I even set them back to -3/-3 and did another acceleration run just to make sure, 7.8 40-100. I will try to get on the dyno soon to get a quantifiable number.

Each car may be a little different, timming belt stretch, component tolerances, tunning, etc, so YMMV. I found that retarding the intake seemed to have the biggest improvment with knock suppression, going positve with the intake or exhaust only made things worse.
In some configurations, good to garbage could be as little as a one degree change. If you have adjustable cam gears, why not use them?

Kind regards,


Eric

weightless

iTrader: (6)

The temperature varied I think. At the time I arrived it did feel like 60-70 degrees and my dyno sheet shows 63 degrees so that's in line w/ what Shiv said. Posting uncorrected graphs in these conditions is definitely not as deceiving as posting them during the freezing winter which I've seen done many times here on EvoM.

Good post on the cam gears. Does it apply to a mix of 264/272 cams? and how would it affect my tune if I tried your settings? I have them set at -2/-2 and did not try any other settings.

Noize

iTrader: (24)

SAE numbers at high altitude on a forced induction car are absolutely higher than they should be. But at Alamo or Turbotricks, they wouldn't be out of line too much. The uncorrected numbers that day can be used to compare those cars to one another. Moreover, if you get a copy of the runs, you can apply SAE corrections to those numbers as well, since the weather station info is contained in the uncorrected run data.

SILVER SURFER

Yes, there are far worse offenders out there, believe me I have seen them, especially from Shiv's buddy in CT. It's just that most people don't seem to look at correction factors, time of year, and location, and figure out that a lot of these dyno numbers are sort of artificially inflated, relatively speaking.
They all have at least one garage door wide open for ventalation, up north in the winter, even with a heater it's going to be dam cold in there.

From what I have seen, that does seem to be true, but uncorrected numbers at high altitude will be lower than sea level. I guess there is no good way to look at high altitude numbers, there either going to be high or low compared to everyone else, but this isn't really the issue here.

True, I was hoping that whoever had the runs would post them with corrections, so I wouldn't have to do all that sifferen. I was really trying to get an idea on how much that manifold really helped out.
Based on what I can see the car showing 355-360WHP should show around 335-340WHP on a 75-80 degree day, and the unkown guy showing 330WHP should be around 320. Which is right in line with the numbers you guys were getting in TX, and very good results for the mods they have (stock turbo). From what I can tell (with a few assumptions) that $700? manifold should be good for around 10-15WHP?

I would think a slightly different setup would work better since you have slightly different cams. As I said, each car is a little different so even a car with the same cams may benefit from slightly different settings. I wasn't intending to give anyone set values to use, but to encourage everyone to experiement with your cam gears and find a setting that works best for you. My settings should help give people a general idea on what direction to try, but YMMV. I am only one person with one car, if a few other people start experimenting and post there results you might be able to get some decent recommendations. Your car may actually work best at -2/-2, I don't know? Although I do think that some seperation would be good for idle and drivability, and may actually give you more power on the top end too.

For example; With a big high flowing turbo, you can retard the hell out of the exhaust cam (10-15 degrees or more) and it will make all kinds of power. Try that with the stock turbo, it won't work.