Aquamist (Water injection) questions and answers here...
Jan 26, 2008, 01:34 PM
#91
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I though I will revive this thread for any aquamist non-related or related questions. Any thing to do with WAI goes...
Last post was on 2005!!!
Last post was on 2005!!!
Jan 27, 2008, 01:32 AM
#94
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It is not fair to our distributor if we organise a GB on an existing product. I will surely get one going for the next new product line. We have an ongoing offer on our forum members at www.waterinjection.info site.
Jan 29, 2008, 12:08 AM
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HFS-1 and HFS-5 comparison
Adding useful information on the current systems (Jan 2008)
The HFS-1 system comprised of:
The system can be triggered by either boost or fuel duty %. A line valve controls the flow of water within 1/100th of second after the pump is activated. Water pressure is regulated by three internal by-pass valves within the 150W Shurflo pump.
Three water jets 0.8, 0.9 and 1.0mm is supplied. Two brass hard pipe adaptors and a y-piece are supplied with the system. A very comprehensive set of fitting and hose is included with the exception of a water tank.
As usual, a high degree of options for the two “failsafe” outputs, enabling user to switch map, lower boost when “low flow”, “high flow” and “no flow” is detected.
The system is highly competent in its own right easily upgradable to any one of the higher HFS end systems in the future with minimum component redundancy.
Link to a HFS-1 dyno session:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=316913
The HFS-5 system comprised of:
Link to a HFS-5 dyno session:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=282469
Overview of HFS-5:
click here
adding useful information on the current systems
Difference between the systems:
The main differences between the two systems:
1) Single stage and Mirroring the fuel duty cycle
2) Inline valve: on/off (standard speed valve) vs PWM (High Speed valve)
3) Comes with a 22cc surge arrestor/accumulator (HFS-5)
The similarity between the two:
4) 150W/125psi shurflo pump
5) DDS3-v8 fail-safe flow monitoring system (with dash gauge)
6) All necessary fittings and wire harness
7) Neither system comes with a tank
8) Three jets + 2x Nickel plated Brass hard pipe adaptor
9) Y-piece for twin jet operations.
10) 100 micron inline fliter
The HFS-1 system comprised of:
The system can be triggered by either boost or fuel duty %. A line valve controls the flow of water within 1/100th of second after the pump is activated. Water pressure is regulated by three internal by-pass valves within the 150W Shurflo pump.
Three water jets 0.8, 0.9 and 1.0mm is supplied. Two brass hard pipe adaptors and a y-piece are supplied with the system. A very comprehensive set of fitting and hose is included with the exception of a water tank.
As usual, a high degree of options for the two “failsafe” outputs, enabling user to switch map, lower boost when “low flow”, “high flow” and “no flow” is detected.
The system is highly competent in its own right easily upgradable to any one of the higher HFS end systems in the future with minimum component redundancy.
Link to a HFS-1 dyno session:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=316913
============
The HFS-5 system comprised of:
- Constant pressure system - very low pressure ripple (factory set to 125psi)
- High speed PWM valve ensure accurate flow control against fuel duty cycle.
- Fast dymanic response time to load and RPM change
- Consistant droplet size due to high system pressure under all conditions.
- Powerful 150 Watt Shurflo pump motor capable of maintaining flow beyond 2 litre/minute
- DDS3 (bundled) ensures flow is monitored constantly for clogged jet or cut hose.
- 2x failsafe channels to perform advanced failsafe tasks such as boost cut, map switch, etc.
- Water and methanol compatible (0-100%)
- High speed PWM valve ensure accurate flow control against fuel duty cycle.
- Fast dymanic response time to load and RPM change
- Consistant droplet size due to high system pressure under all conditions.
- Powerful 150 Watt Shurflo pump motor capable of maintaining flow beyond 2 litre/minute
- DDS3 (bundled) ensures flow is monitored constantly for clogged jet or cut hose.
- 2x failsafe channels to perform advanced failsafe tasks such as boost cut, map switch, etc.
- Water and methanol compatible (0-100%)
Link to a HFS-5 dyno session:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=282469
Overview of HFS-5:
click here
==================
adding useful information on the current systems
Difference between the systems:
The main differences between the two systems:
1) Single stage and Mirroring the fuel duty cycle
2) Inline valve: on/off (standard speed valve) vs PWM (High Speed valve)
3) Comes with a 22cc surge arrestor/accumulator (HFS-5)
The similarity between the two:
4) 150W/125psi shurflo pump
5) DDS3-v8 fail-safe flow monitoring system (with dash gauge)
6) All necessary fittings and wire harness
7) Neither system comes with a tank
8) Three jets + 2x Nickel plated Brass hard pipe adaptor
9) Y-piece for twin jet operations.
10) 100 micron inline fliter
Last edited by Richard L; Jan 29, 2008 at 06:25 AM.
Jan 29, 2008, 01:18 AM
#98
Edited because I went back and read the whole thread (intresting read!)
Richard, I am seriously considering an HFS-5 system, perhaps you could answer some questions I have reguarding the system and associated equipment (including other products). I have 1 main switch which operated a several-point-several-throw relay. One leg of this relay opens and closes an electric exhaust cutout. Currently I have a manual boost controller in line between my compressor and wastegate, this is dialed in to a high PSI. I plan to install an electric valve "T"'d between the compressor and wastegate as well to open when the switched relay is open and close when the switched relay is closed. I believe this would be a nice alternative to the complications of electronic boost controllers (excess wiring/features ect.) Also I am a real do-it-yourselfer. I would like to utilize another leg of this relay to switch maps, and yet another to activate the HFS-5. My thoughts are, should the HFS-5 detect an error/fault/flow problem, there is an output wire for that yes? Would I be able to use this output to essentially open a switch to the trigger line of the relay, and essentially SwitchMaps, DropBoost(to wastegate pressure), Close the cutout, and disable the HFS-5. My concern is in how the HFS-5 is activated and de-activated with the failsafes. Aside from the failsafe output, what does the HFS-5 do after a fault is sensed, (keeping in mind my scenario). Also, I read through this thread, especially the sections about the EMS's. Which do you recommend as a simple solution to interface with a like system and the HFS-5? I plan to put down some serious boost pressure (via GT42R) ultimately, yet I believe that 100% water would yield the results I am looking for, that being an alternative cooling method and prevention of slight knock/detonation. By no means am I looking for an octane-alternative, however the ability to up the boost or lean the mixture during water spray would be welcome, but not to the extent as I see people using Meth. How can I calculate the % of water I need to inject, (or what nozzles/restrictors from the hfs-5 to use) for my particular application? There is a wide array of information pertaining to meth, but I have hard luck finding water-specific information, any links would be appreciated, you seem very knowledgable on this subject matter.
Thanks,
James L.
Richard, I am seriously considering an HFS-5 system, perhaps you could answer some questions I have reguarding the system and associated equipment (including other products). I have 1 main switch which operated a several-point-several-throw relay. One leg of this relay opens and closes an electric exhaust cutout. Currently I have a manual boost controller in line between my compressor and wastegate, this is dialed in to a high PSI. I plan to install an electric valve "T"'d between the compressor and wastegate as well to open when the switched relay is open and close when the switched relay is closed. I believe this would be a nice alternative to the complications of electronic boost controllers (excess wiring/features ect.) Also I am a real do-it-yourselfer. I would like to utilize another leg of this relay to switch maps, and yet another to activate the HFS-5. My thoughts are, should the HFS-5 detect an error/fault/flow problem, there is an output wire for that yes? Would I be able to use this output to essentially open a switch to the trigger line of the relay, and essentially SwitchMaps, DropBoost(to wastegate pressure), Close the cutout, and disable the HFS-5. My concern is in how the HFS-5 is activated and de-activated with the failsafes. Aside from the failsafe output, what does the HFS-5 do after a fault is sensed, (keeping in mind my scenario). Also, I read through this thread, especially the sections about the EMS's. Which do you recommend as a simple solution to interface with a like system and the HFS-5? I plan to put down some serious boost pressure (via GT42R) ultimately, yet I believe that 100% water would yield the results I am looking for, that being an alternative cooling method and prevention of slight knock/detonation. By no means am I looking for an octane-alternative, however the ability to up the boost or lean the mixture during water spray would be welcome, but not to the extent as I see people using Meth. How can I calculate the % of water I need to inject, (or what nozzles/restrictors from the hfs-5 to use) for my particular application? There is a wide array of information pertaining to meth, but I have hard luck finding water-specific information, any links would be appreciated, you seem very knowledgable on this subject matter.
Thanks,
James L.
Last edited by Jameson_IXMR; Jan 29, 2008 at 04:07 AM.
Jan 29, 2008, 02:19 PM
#99
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James,
I like your one-stop failsafe switch.
Information I need to know if the relay is:
1. Constantly energised to enable high boost etc.
2. The switch is switching the relay on via a ground?
Information you would like know about the HFS-5:
3. Failsafe output 1: When water is detected inside the flow window, you will get a "switch-to-ground" signal. Up to 1 Amp.
4. Failsafe output 2: When water is outside the flow window, a pair of relay contact opens.
What is possible with the above combination:
5. You can enable or disable the HFS-5 via your switch.
6. The on/off buttom can enable or disable your switch.
7. In stead if using a toggle switch, you can use a momentary botton to enable the relay (self-latching mode). When there is WI fault, the HFS-5 can unlatch it until you press the button again to set it.
8. Enough for the time being.
Further reference -the user manual:
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gall.../HFS-5-v3w.pdf
I like your one-stop failsafe switch.
Information I need to know if the relay is:
1. Constantly energised to enable high boost etc.
2. The switch is switching the relay on via a ground?
Information you would like know about the HFS-5:
3. Failsafe output 1: When water is detected inside the flow window, you will get a "switch-to-ground" signal. Up to 1 Amp.
4. Failsafe output 2: When water is outside the flow window, a pair of relay contact opens.
What is possible with the above combination:
5. You can enable or disable the HFS-5 via your switch.
6. The on/off buttom can enable or disable your switch.
7. In stead if using a toggle switch, you can use a momentary botton to enable the relay (self-latching mode). When there is WI fault, the HFS-5 can unlatch it until you press the button again to set it.
8. Enough for the time being.
Further reference -the user manual:
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gall.../HFS-5-v3w.pdf
Jan 29, 2008, 09:00 PM
#100
I have no issues with the relay, it is switched from the ground. The switch I am using is a momentary on-off normally off with a magnetic hold to the on position (via a smaller internal relay), I can run a wire jumper (as it is DPDT) to disengage the internal magnetic hold and return the switch to the off position automatically. I would only need a signal wire from the HFS-5 that is open when in use and closed(to ground) when a fault is detected. I know it sounds overly complicated, but there is good reasoning behind this, as well as a good sense of security. I would rather lose the race than lose a motor. Thank you for the manual link, I will be sure to read it, I hope it has a fully detailed schematic.
Information I need to know if the relay is:
1. Constantly energised to enable high boost etc.
Yes
2. The switch is switching the relay on via a ground?
Yes
Information you would like know about the HFS-5:
3. Failsafe output 1: When water is detected inside the flow window, you will get a "switch-to-ground" signal. Up to 1 Amp.
This output should work for my purpose.
4. Failsafe output 2: When water is outside the flow window, a pair of relay contact opens.
This would work as well, am I correct in stating that this output is the same as the above with the inclusion of a normally closed relay being powered by the above "switch-to-ground" signal.
What is possible with the above combination:
5. You can enable or disable the HFS-5 via your switch.
Which wire would I open/close to do such?
6. The on/off buttom can enable or disable your switch.
a non issue
7. In stead if using a toggle switch, you can use a momentary botton to enable the relay (self-latching mode). When there is WI fault, the HFS-5 can unlatch it until you press the button again to set it.
Exactly as I have it wired.
8. Enough for the time being.
Thanks for taking the time!
-James
I believe that Manual answere all of my question, thanks.
Information I need to know if the relay is:
1. Constantly energised to enable high boost etc.
Yes
2. The switch is switching the relay on via a ground?
Yes
Information you would like know about the HFS-5:
3. Failsafe output 1: When water is detected inside the flow window, you will get a "switch-to-ground" signal. Up to 1 Amp.
This output should work for my purpose.
4. Failsafe output 2: When water is outside the flow window, a pair of relay contact opens.
This would work as well, am I correct in stating that this output is the same as the above with the inclusion of a normally closed relay being powered by the above "switch-to-ground" signal.
What is possible with the above combination:
5. You can enable or disable the HFS-5 via your switch.
Which wire would I open/close to do such?
6. The on/off buttom can enable or disable your switch.
a non issue
7. In stead if using a toggle switch, you can use a momentary botton to enable the relay (self-latching mode). When there is WI fault, the HFS-5 can unlatch it until you press the button again to set it.
Exactly as I have it wired.
8. Enough for the time being.
Thanks for taking the time!
-James
I believe that Manual answere all of my question, thanks.
Last edited by Jameson_IXMR; Jan 29, 2008 at 09:10 PM.
Jan 30, 2008, 02:16 AM
#101
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My replies in Blue
I have no issues with the relay, it is switched from the ground. The switch I am using is a momentary on-off normally off with a magnetic hold to the on position (via a smaller internal relay), I can run a wire jumper (as it is DPDT) to disengage the internal magnetic hold and return the switch to the off position automatically.
I was hoping you are using this mode, it is by far the the best way to iron out user mistake - except to need to remember to press the button after starting the engine. In order to disengage the holding relay, you need to momentary disconnect the coil feed?
I would only need a signal wire from the HFS-5 that is open when in use and closed(to ground) when a fault is detected. I know it sounds overly complicated, but there is good reasoning behind this, as well as a good sense of security. I would rather lose the race than lose a motor. Thank you for the manual link, I will be sure to read it, I hope it has a fully detailed schematic.
This can be accomplished by using the "voltage free" contact on failsafe output 2 (pin11/12). At present, this output "makes" the contact" and drops out when fault is detected, or DDS3 gauge is switched off. However, you can use the "change over" leg of this relay output to achieve your preferred method - you need a do simple soldering job.
Information I need to know if the relay is:
1. Constantly energised to enable high boost etc.
Yes
Good
2. The switch is switching the relay on via a ground?
Yes
Excellent
Information you would like know about the HFS-5:
3. Failsafe output 1: When water is detected inside the flow window, you will get a "switch-to-ground" signal. Up to 1 Amp.
This output should work for my purpose.
This output can be a problem for most as the "switch-to- ground" is in constant "flip/flop" mode when the flow goes in/out of the windowed area after triggering.
4. Failsafe output 2: When water is outside the flow window, a pair of relay contact opens.
This would work as well, am I correct in stating that this output is the same as the above with the inclusion of a normally closed relay being powered by the above "switch-to-ground" signal.
This output is better than the above, it does not "flip/flop", it only drops out when there is a fault detected or DDS3 is switched off.
What is possible with the above combination:
5. You can enable or disable the HFS-5 via your switch.
Which wire would I open/close to do such?
This option is not highlighted in the user manual. If you ground pin #6 (MPS), you "disable" the entire WI system. This can easly be integrated with a "normally closed/ground" contacts on your multipole c/o relay.
6. The on/off buttom can enable or disable your switch.
a non issue
7. In stead if using a toggle switch, you can use a momentary botton to enable the relay (self-latching mode). When there is WI fault, the HFS-5 can unlatch it until you press the button again to set it.
Exactly as I have it wired.
Good - so far the HFS-5 will work with your system without need to modify the exist mode.
8. Enough for the time being.
Thanks for taking the time!
To be continued..
-James
I believe that Manual answere all of my question, thanks.
I was hoping you are using this mode, it is by far the the best way to iron out user mistake - except to need to remember to press the button after starting the engine. In order to disengage the holding relay, you need to momentary disconnect the coil feed?
I would only need a signal wire from the HFS-5 that is open when in use and closed(to ground) when a fault is detected. I know it sounds overly complicated, but there is good reasoning behind this, as well as a good sense of security. I would rather lose the race than lose a motor. Thank you for the manual link, I will be sure to read it, I hope it has a fully detailed schematic.
This can be accomplished by using the "voltage free" contact on failsafe output 2 (pin11/12). At present, this output "makes" the contact" and drops out when fault is detected, or DDS3 gauge is switched off. However, you can use the "change over" leg of this relay output to achieve your preferred method - you need a do simple soldering job.
Information I need to know if the relay is:
1. Constantly energised to enable high boost etc.
Yes
Good
2. The switch is switching the relay on via a ground?
Yes
Excellent
Information you would like know about the HFS-5:
3. Failsafe output 1: When water is detected inside the flow window, you will get a "switch-to-ground" signal. Up to 1 Amp.
This output should work for my purpose.
This output can be a problem for most as the "switch-to- ground" is in constant "flip/flop" mode when the flow goes in/out of the windowed area after triggering.
4. Failsafe output 2: When water is outside the flow window, a pair of relay contact opens.
This would work as well, am I correct in stating that this output is the same as the above with the inclusion of a normally closed relay being powered by the above "switch-to-ground" signal.
This output is better than the above, it does not "flip/flop", it only drops out when there is a fault detected or DDS3 is switched off.
What is possible with the above combination:
5. You can enable or disable the HFS-5 via your switch.
Which wire would I open/close to do such?
This option is not highlighted in the user manual. If you ground pin #6 (MPS), you "disable" the entire WI system. This can easly be integrated with a "normally closed/ground" contacts on your multipole c/o relay.
6. The on/off buttom can enable or disable your switch.
a non issue
7. In stead if using a toggle switch, you can use a momentary botton to enable the relay (self-latching mode). When there is WI fault, the HFS-5 can unlatch it until you press the button again to set it.
Exactly as I have it wired.
Good - so far the HFS-5 will work with your system without need to modify the exist mode.
8. Enough for the time being.
Thanks for taking the time!
To be continued..
-James
I believe that Manual answere all of my question, thanks.
May 8, 2008, 12:14 AM
#102
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Richard I'm not familiar at all with Water Injection or how it works so I've been trying to educate myself on this. I'm going to have it professionally installed by a very respected tuner so my question is in performance. I don't want to be bothered by renewing my fuel source(methanol) all the time so I was just thinking about going 100% water. Is it worth it to pay $900.00+install if I'm only gonna get it tuned using water?
May 8, 2008, 12:43 AM
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Richard I'm not familiar at all with Water Injection or how it works so I've been trying to educate myself on this. I'm going to have it professionally installed by a very respected tuner so my question is in performance. I don't want to be bothered by renewing my fuel source(methanol) all the time so I was just thinking about going 100% water. Is it worth it to pay $900.00+install if I'm only gonna get it tuned using water?
One more thing to keep in mind is that you can not just use tap water as it has lots of minerals in it, you will want to use distilled water, which you will have to buy.
Finally, if you don't want to spend too much on re-filling, you can always use smaller jets to reduce the amount of fluid you consume.
May 8, 2008, 12:48 AM
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thanks dudical, that was a very informative response but I guess I'm trying to look at hard numbers. It's a safe assumption that you can easily make 440-450 at the wheels on a GT35R on 93 pump gas. If I did run 75-100% water then what kind of power can I make with that?
May 8, 2008, 02:13 AM
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I try to stay away from giving number predictions, but if we think through it logically I would say that you will be able to run at least 3-4 psi more using water injection.
Which should be good for 30-40 HP if the turbo can support that much more boost for the entire rev range (it should be able to).
To give you an example, I run 100% meth on a stock turbo and I run around 31psi spike and then basically just run as much boost as the turbo can make for the rest of the rev range. Because the stock turbo runs out of air pretty quickly, I don't pick up that much HP but I pick up a ton of TQ from the boost spike. Again its hard to give exact numbers but I would say that I picked up around 30-40 HP and 50TQ on a stock turbo.
On a GT35 I would think you might not pick up as much TQ but you should easily be able to get a lot of HP.
If you really want some HP predictions try giving Al a call, he works at ICS. He has had a lot of experience tuning cars with all different turbo's on varying levels of meth and water. He also sells Aquamist kits, so you are covered in that sense too.
Which should be good for 30-40 HP if the turbo can support that much more boost for the entire rev range (it should be able to).
To give you an example, I run 100% meth on a stock turbo and I run around 31psi spike and then basically just run as much boost as the turbo can make for the rest of the rev range. Because the stock turbo runs out of air pretty quickly, I don't pick up that much HP but I pick up a ton of TQ from the boost spike. Again its hard to give exact numbers but I would say that I picked up around 30-40 HP and 50TQ on a stock turbo.
On a GT35 I would think you might not pick up as much TQ but you should easily be able to get a lot of HP.
If you really want some HP predictions try giving Al a call, he works at ICS. He has had a lot of experience tuning cars with all different turbo's on varying levels of meth and water. He also sells Aquamist kits, so you are covered in that sense too.